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Inspiration

Young Scientists and Mindful Inquiry:Building Wisdom Beyond Metrics

Thich Nhat Hanh
Thich Nhat Hanh
May 1, 2026
9 min read
Watch · 7

TLDR: During the 2025 Science Retreat at Plum Village, a panel of young scientists—Elli Weisbaum, Lauren Rego, and Mridula Sathyanarayanan—facilitated by Nho Anh Tran, discuss how Buddhist practice, particularly Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings, inform their research, teaching, and ethical vision. Rather than separating science from contemplative practice, they model how mindfulness, the art of not knowing, and whole-person engagement sharpen moral imagination and allow science to serve liberation. The conversation centers on replicability and rigor reimagined through qualitative research, the role of institutions in protecting intellectual freedom, and how young scholars might integrate data, storytelling, and wisdom traditions to address planetary and human suffering.

Read · 11 sections

Why Does This Moment Matter for Young Scientists?

Nho Anh Tran opens the panel by naming the stakes: the United States is currently experiencing what he describes as "a deep project" to undo academic freedoms and dismantle educational institutions. In this context, protecting the voices and stories of young scientists—particularly young women and people of color in science—becomes a moral and institutional imperative. He frames this panel not as a performance but as an invitation for panelists to "show up as a whole person," bringing their full humanity to the conversation rather than adopting the persona expected at typical academic conferences. This reflects a core Plum Village teaching: that mindfulness is "a practice of making the invisible visible."

What Does Howard Thurman Teach Us About Worth and Resistance?

Tran recounts a story from Howard Thurman's autobiography that sets the moral tone for the entire panel. Thurman, a Black mystical theologian and teacher of Martin Luther King Jr., once brought his young daughters to a public playground in Daytona Beach, Florida, only to encounter a sign reading "No Negroes allowed." Rather than shield them from racism, Thurman made a conscious choice to explain the injustice directly. He told his daughters: "Listen, girls. You must know how important you are. That the state, that the law, that the mayor, that the businesses, the churches, the people of Florida have worked all together to stop you from playing. You have to understand how important you are." This story illustrates a crucial principle: our measure of self-worth should be weighed not by the forces opposing us, but by the collective effort deployed against us. For young scientists today, particularly those from marginalized communities, this teaching invites a reframing of institutional barriers not as proof of insufficiency but as evidence of significance.

How Does the Humanities Sharpen Scientific Imagination?

Tran identifies himself as representing the humanities at a science retreat—"I have secretly snuck into the scientist retreat declaring myself also a scientist." This provocation opens space for a critical question: what is the relationship between scientific data and the stories we tell with it? He argues that the morning's panel had focused on "the art of not knowing, the art of updating our frameworks, the art of empathy, and the art of bringing our whole selves into the work." But integration happens through narrative. The humanities—through storytelling—are the medium through which data becomes wisdom that can "make a dent in the world." Without the narratives, frameworks remain abstract; without rigorous data, stories become ideology. The panelists model what happens when both are held together.

What Is the Role of Institutions in Protecting Intellectual Freedom?

Tran emphasizes that institutions—even imperfect ones like Plum Village—are worth defending because they "give rise to the chance of generating wisdom together." This is not naive institutional reverence but strategic protection of the spaces where intellectual risk-taking and deep collaboration can happen. Young scientists need institutions that allow them to ask unfamiliar questions, to fail without penalty, and to bring their full selves (including spiritual practice, emotional wisdom, and moral commitments) into their work. When institutions are dismantled or narrowed, this possibility collapses.

How Do the Panelists Integrate Practice with Their Work?

Elli Weisbaum introduces herself as someone working from Toronto (the traditional territory of the Huron-Wendat, Seneca, and Mississaugas of the Credit). She teaches in the Buddhism, Psychology, Mental Health program at the University of Toronto and conducts research on Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings and clinician wellness at the Temerty Faculty of Medicine. She is also cross-appointed to the Dalai Lama School of Public Health. Rather than treating these positions as separate roles, Weisbaum speaks of them as a flow—how does practice move through teaching, research, and public health? She brings two of her own students onto the panel, creating visible accountability and modeling the kind of mentorship in which wisdom is co-created rather than transmitted from expert to student.

Her research focuses on what she calls "replicability" in qualitative behavioral research. Rather than the natural science model of replication—doing the same experiment again—she suggests that when studying humans, the very act of repeating creates difference because humans are always changing. This reframing honors the real world while maintaining rigor. She introduces another key concept: the invitation to "not knowing" as a posture of research. This aligns with Buddhist epistemology, where the goal is not to accumulate knowledge as possession but to develop wisdom through direct encounter.

What Does It Mean to Hold Intergenerational Accountability in Science?

By sitting with her students on the panel, Weisbaum creates a structure of accountability. She notes that if she makes claims about her intentions regarding inclusive spaces and learning through unknowing, "you've got receipts on either side of me." This is not abstract accountability but relational: her students will corroborate, challenge, or complicate her narrative. This practice of transparent, intergenerational witnessing stands in contrast to the hierarchical model where the senior scholar speaks and junior scholars listen. Instead, the panel models what scholarship looks like when it is held by a web of relationships rather than by individual authority.

How Can Scientists Honor Both Data and Mystery?

The broader conversation evident in the transcript suggests a core tension that young scientists are actively holding: How do we use quantitative rigor and qualitative depth without reducing either to the other? How do we let data speak without pretending data are transparent or objective? One panelist mentions working with both "quantitative and qualitative data" and designing frameworks that can hold both. This is not a compromise but a sophisticated practice of epistemological pluralism—understanding that different ways of knowing reveal different truths.

The panel also hints at the question of how artificial intelligence and computational tools should serve research. Rather than asking "What can AI do?" they seem to be asking "How do we ask better questions to the AI?" and "Is AI a tool, or is it a raft we're riding?"—evoking the Buddhist metaphor of the raft, where the vessel is useful for crossing the river but not meant to be carried on one's back forever. This suggests a mature relationship to technology: useful, but not ultimate.

What Role Does the Beginner's Mind Play in Advanced Research?

One panelist references "what we call in Buddhism the beginner's mind," suggesting that expertise in science and devotion to practice are not in conflict. The beginner's mind—the willingness to encounter each moment without preconception—is not naïveté but the opposite: it is the capacity to see what is actually there rather than what we expect to see. For scientists, this means updating frameworks when data contradicts them, remaining open to surprise, and not letting previous models ossify into dogma. This is particularly important as one panelist notes about being "a living breathing tradition"—the practice and the research must not become calcified monuments but must evolve responsively.

How Do Young Scientists Navigate the Politics of Knowledge?

The panel occurs in a moment of real political threat to academic institutions and scientific freedom. Tran's invocation of the Howard Thurman story—which centers on structural racism and systemic denial of opportunity—makes clear that "protecting young scientists" is not apolitical. It requires naming what is at stake: the ability to ask unpopular questions, to collaborate across disciplines, to bring whole selves to work, and to let wisdom traditions inform scientific inquiry. These are not luxuries but the conditions under which truly creative and ethical research emerges.

What Is the Relationship Between Moral Imagination and Scientific Innovation?

Tran argues that "the most important thing that we could do is really sharpen and cultivate our moral imagination." He identifies three temporal dimensions necessary for this: listening to the present (the morning's panel on current science), listening to the future (what young scientists aspire to do), and listening to the past (ancestral wisdom). Moral imagination is not separate from scientific work; it is the capacity to envision what is possible, what ought to be, and how data might serve human and planetary flourishing. Without it, science becomes merely technical. Without rigorous science, moral imagination becomes fantasy.

Where to Go from Here

This panel models several concrete practices worth adopting:

  • Bring your whole self to your work. Don't perform a narrow academic role; let your spiritual practice, emotional wisdom, and moral commitments inform your research and teaching.
  • Practice the art of not knowing. Design your research and curriculum around genuine questions, not predetermined answers. Remain willing to update your frameworks.
  • Hold intergenerational accountability. Create structures where your claims can be witnessed and challenged by those closer to lived experience.
  • Defend institutions that enable wisdom-making. Even imperfect institutions are worth protecting because they enable collaboration, risk-taking, and the deep work of learning together.
  • Integrate multiple ways of knowing. Rigor is not the exclusive property of quantitative science. Qualitative depth, narrative wisdom, and contemplative insight are equally rigorous when held with integrity.
  • Sharpen your moral imagination. Ask not only "What can science do?" but "What ought science serve? Whose flourishing? At what cost?"
  • Use technology wisely. Tools like AI are rafts, not destinations. Ask better questions of them rather than letting them reshape your inquiry.

Transcript

[1:14] Um dear tiger Sangha,

[1:18] um again welcome to this afternoon's

[1:20] panel.

[1:21] Um I have uh the great pleasure of

[1:28] moderating a conversation with our young

[1:30] scientists here today.

[1:32] Um and to be honest,

[1:34] uh

[1:35] we have uh

[1:37] I wouldn't call it a game plan, you

[1:40] know, but we're going to we're going to

[1:41] move as a spirit

[1:43] tells us to, right? We got we got Ty in

[1:46] front of us, we got the ancestors in our

[1:48] backs. We're we're going to move through

[1:49] this conversation

[1:51] as uh

[1:53] as a spirit moves us. And I um I had

[1:56] invited our panelists to show up and

[1:59] show out fully as themselves. Uh there

[2:02] is no uh the invitation is to let go of

[2:06] any sort of performativity that one

[2:09] might have at a conference and to show

[2:11] up as a whole person

[2:13] um in in this uh panel discussion.

[2:17] And one of the things that is really

[2:19] coming to me right now, um

[2:22] a little bit of

[2:24] background is that uh

[2:26] I am a uh

[2:29] I'm here representing the humanities and

[2:32] the social scientists in the room.

[2:34] Uh I have secretly snuck into the

[2:36] scientist retreat declaring myself also

[2:39] a scientist as well.

[2:41] There you go. I'm here for the

[2:42] humanities. Shout out to the humanities

[2:44] because I think we play a very important

[2:46] role.

[2:48] Uh I think this morning we heard a lot

[2:50] about from

[2:52] um from our panel this morning about the

[2:54] art of not knowing, the art of updating

[2:58] our frameworks, the art of empathy, the

[3:01] art of bringing our whole selves into

[3:03] the work that we do, the data of it all,

[3:06] the information of it all, and all the

[3:08] things. How do we How do we integrate it

[3:10] into our lives so that we actually can

[3:12] make a change or a dent in the world?

[3:13] And it's through the stories we tell.

[3:16] And this is where the humanities steps

[3:18] in.

[3:19] And And so I think on this panel you're

[3:21] going to hear wonderful stories

[3:23] of of these young scientists and the

[3:25] work that they are doing and aspiring to

[3:28] do.

[3:29] And I think this is the data that you

[3:31] get to receive from

[3:34] this morning's panel and this

[3:35] afternoon's panel to update your new

[3:37] models of the world. Okay?

[3:39] Um

[3:40] I'm sharing from the context of someone

[3:43] coming from an American institution.

[3:46] And uh

[3:48] as we all know in the American context

[3:51] right now, there are uh

[3:53] there there's a a deep project in this

[3:56] new administration to uh

[3:59] to undo a lot of the academic freedoms

[4:02] and the academic institution in general.

[4:06] Uh to undo or to dismantle the

[4:08] Department of Education in the American

[4:11] context. So,

[4:13] um protecting and hearing stories of uh

[4:17] of um

[4:19] of young scientists

[4:21] and and young scholars alike is really

[4:23] important to me.

[4:25] Uh this past semester I taught a class

[4:29] uh

[4:30] um on Howard Thurman.

[4:33] And Howard Thurman uh is a black

[4:36] mystical theologian

[4:39] and he is the teacher of uh Martin

[4:42] Luther King Jr. He wrote the book Jesus

[4:45] and the Disinherited.

[4:47] And he and Martin Luther King Jr. had

[4:49] always kept this book in the back of his

[4:51] pocket everywhere he went as he did his

[4:53] civil rights movement.

[4:56] Um and Howard Thurman had written an

[4:58] autobiography.

[5:00] And in this autobiography he recounts a

[5:02] story where he had to tell for the first

[5:04] time explain to his two young daughters

[5:07] what racism is.

[5:09] And the story had stuck with me and I I

[5:12] please allow me to share it with you cuz

[5:13] I think it frames my spirit as I step

[5:16] into moderating this panel.

[5:19] Um

[5:21] At that time Howard Thurman was teaching

[5:22] at Boston University and he brought his

[5:25] daughters to Daytona Beach, Florida to

[5:29] visit his family.

[5:31] And his daughters his young daughters

[5:33] said, "Dad, we want to go to the

[5:34] playground and we want to play."

[5:36] And so he took them to the public

[5:38] playground and then there was a sign

[5:40] there that says, "No Negroes allowed."

[5:45] And he made a conscious decision at that

[5:47] moment to stand there and to explain to

[5:49] the his daughters why they could not

[5:52] play

[5:53] and swing on those swings in a public

[5:56] park.

[5:58] And he said to them,

[6:01] "Listen, girls.

[6:02] You must know how important you are.

[6:05] That the state, that the law, that the

[6:08] mayor, that uh the businesses, the

[6:11] churches, the people of Florida have

[6:14] worked all together to stop you from

[6:16] playing. You have to understand how

[6:18] important you are.

[6:21] You must under You must weigh your worth

[6:23] and your your self-worth and your

[6:25] importance against the amount of power

[6:29] and the amount of force that people are

[6:31] trying to stop you from doing the things

[6:32] that you need to do.

[6:34] Remember how important you are."

[6:37] And this story I think resonates with me

[6:40] in so many ways, but it also resonates

[6:43] with me in ways of protecting the

[6:45] institutions, although not perfect, I

[6:47] That's a caveat. Not perfect. The

[6:49] institutions that allow us to think

[6:52] better together.

[6:54] The institutions that like even like

[6:55] Plum Village that give rise to the

[6:58] chance of generating wisdom together.

[7:01] And so it is a great great honor to be

[7:04] sitting here today on this panel and I

[7:06] would say also a panel of young

[7:09] scientist and then young female

[7:10] identifying scientist at that, which is

[7:12] a big feat in the world of science if

[7:15] you know, um

[7:16] to to share their stories and to learn

[7:19] from their wisdom and to see what we can

[7:22] see together.

[7:23] Because I think at this moment the most

[7:25] important thing that we could do

[7:28] is really sharpen and cultivate our

[7:30] moral imagination.

[7:33] Because things got to be different. They

[7:35] can't stay the same.

[7:37] So how do we take science? How do we

[7:39] take data? How do we take the

[7:40] technologies and sharpen our moral

[7:43] imagination together? It's by listening

[7:46] to the to the present, which was this

[7:47] morning's morning's panel, and then

[7:50] listening to the future.

[7:51] Right? And then also listening to the

[7:53] past where we have the uh the wisdom of

[7:56] our ancestors that have transmitted to

[7:58] us.

[7:59] Um And so this is the spirit of today's

[8:03] panel, right? This morning's panel.

[8:06] And I am going to pass them I'm not

[8:08] going to introduce the uh the the the

[8:10] panelists because I it would be a

[8:12] disservice cuz they are

[8:16] they are humans that contain multitudes.

[8:18] And so the first question I would like

[8:20] to ask our panelists today

[8:22] is to introduce themselves and to tell

[8:25] us what is

[8:27] what's important for us to know about

[8:29] you?

[8:42] Dear Ty, dear Sangha, I've been voted I

[8:45] think voted first.

[8:47] Mm.

[8:49] Dear all, my name is Ally, she/her. Uh

[8:53] in this moment uh traveled from the land

[8:54] of the Huron-Wendat, Seneca,

[8:56] Mississaugas of the Credit, uh also uh

[8:59] sometimes known as Toronto, Canada. Uh

[9:02] here

[9:03] uh partially uh from working from the

[9:05] University of Toronto and uh yeah,

[9:07] delighted to be sitting in this hall.

[9:09] I'll share some different pieces of

[9:11] myself. Sometimes we say uh

[9:13] mindfulness is a practice of making the

[9:15] invisible visible and uh time and space

[9:17] historic dimension, there's just so much

[9:19] visibility, but hopefully playing

[9:21] together we can get to know each other

[9:23] more. Also our translators, I'll be

[9:25] looking out for you. I know when I get

[9:27] excited and passionate and we're going

[9:29] to talk about science and Dharma, I can

[9:32] talk fast, so

[9:33] forgive me in advance.

[9:35] Um

[9:37] maybe something to make visible first

[9:38] about myself is I am sitting between two

[9:41] of my students.

[9:43] Uh and so I'm really excited to share

[9:46] about each of our lives and also how

[9:48] they've intertwined,

[9:50] uh how this practice that we're

[9:51] exploring here informs uh

[9:54] both our work and how we work uh that

[9:57] I've had the opportunity to collaborate

[9:59] with these two humans as well.

[10:01] Uh, so if I make some claims about maybe

[10:03] my intentions or joy in cultivating

[10:06] safe, inclusive spaces where learning

[10:08] can mean not knowing, you've got

[10:10] receipts on either side of me, so we can

[10:12] check in.

[10:14] Mhm.

[10:15] So, I wear a few different hats at the

[10:17] University of Toronto right now. I teach

[10:19] in an undergraduate program, the

[10:21] Buddhism, Psychology, Mental Health

[10:23] program.

[10:24] And I'm jointly appointed to the Temerty

[10:26] Faculty of Medicine,

[10:28] uh, where I conduct research looking at

[10:31] the impact of Thich Nhat Hanh's

[10:33] teachings on physician and more broadly

[10:35] clinician wellness.

[10:37] And I'm also cross-appointed to the

[10:39] Dalai Lama School of Public Health.

[10:42] Um,

[10:44] lots of different titles for me. It's,

[10:46] you know, we can talk more and cook up

[10:47] like, where does this practice flow? How

[10:50] do we, as a qualitative researcher,

[10:52] there's another piece of identity. Um,

[10:56] we like to say instead of, uh, rep-

[10:58] replicability,

[10:59] uh, because especially when we're

[11:01] looking at like behavioral studies, uh,

[11:03] we know we're we're always changing. To

[11:05] say I did something with humans, and the

[11:07] next minute I replicated that exact same

[11:10] thing, I'm not the same human between

[11:13] every breath. Uh, so we like to use this

[11:15] word transferability.

[11:17] Uh, so I say I'm I'm infinitely curious

[11:21] about how this practice,

[11:23] uh, this this

[11:25] these teachings that come to us through

[11:27] the Dharma, through Thich Nhat Hanh,

[11:29] through Plum Village, can transfer if

[11:31] into different spaces. I'm really

[11:33] curious about that.

[11:35] Um, and maybe a little more about me. I

[11:37] I started becoming curious about this,

[11:39] uh, just after my 10th birthday when I

[11:41] went to my first retreat with Thich Nhat

[11:43] Hanh in the Sangha.

[11:45] Uh, so I went through children's

[11:46] program, teen program, flowed right into

[11:49] Wake Up, which is the Young Adults

[11:51] movement. Um, and I can tell you when

[11:54] you come home from a retreat and you're

[11:55] a teen, your friends like, "What were

[11:56] you doing?"

[11:58] Uh,

[11:59] and from a young age I I had this

[12:01] understanding that to transfer these

[12:04] practices, to like listen to my friends

[12:06] with love and compassion,

[12:08] really made a big difference on our

[12:10] relationships, but I didn't have to be

[12:11] like, "Excuse me, I am now listening to

[12:13] you with compassion."

[12:15] Um, so I've been curious for a long time

[12:18] how these practices inform my own inner

[12:20] landscape and how that affects the

[12:22] landscape around me. Um, and as a

[12:25] curious being, uh, research just made

[12:27] sense. So, I'll I I won't say too much

[12:29] more about myself cuz it'll come out in

[12:31] the questions, but I did my

[12:32] undergraduate in fine arts, uh, in

[12:34] filmmaking, cuz I love telling stories.

[12:37] I like to tell my students, a good

[12:39] scientist is also a good storyteller.

[12:42] Because if we don't know how to tell our

[12:44] story, we're just like sitting in a room

[12:46] kind of alone. Um, so I was always love

[12:49] storytelling. So, fine arts, my master's

[12:51] in is environmental studies, looking at

[12:54] actually the environment of a classroom.

[12:56] Uh, my my thesis for my master's was on

[12:59] the road in India with the monastics and

[13:02] Shantum going into schools. Uh, Brother

[13:04] Pháp Dung, if you know him, was signing

[13:06] my field research papers. Um, and

[13:09] cooking up how we bring this into

[13:10] classrooms. And then my PhD,

[13:13] uh, was looking at taking Thay's

[13:15] teachings, um, and encoding a number of

[13:19] his five-day retreats, and then

[13:21] translating that into a five-week

[13:23] program, because as a young PhD student

[13:25] I thought,

[13:26] "I'm going to see how Thay's teachings

[13:28] like impact like clinician

[13:30] decision-making." And then I I

[13:32] discovered that no, uh, there hadn't

[13:34] been research kind of to just start

[13:37] looking at like how to transfer his

[13:39] teachings explicitly. I could find so

[13:41] many research articles, um,

[13:44] that talked about, you know, it seemed

[13:46] like Thay's work, but weren't explicit.

[13:47] So, I thought, "Okay, I'm going to back

[13:48] up and do that."

[13:50] So, I won't say too much else. All this

[13:52] is to just say I'm infinitely curious

[13:55] about how the science and Dharma talk to

[13:57] each other.

[13:59] And, uh, more on that later.

[14:10] Hi everyone.

[14:14] My name's Mridula. Uh, I'm originally

[14:17] from Southern India, and I now uh, I'm

[14:20] in my undergraduate degree at the

[14:21] University of Toronto. There were quite

[14:24] a few moves in between because I'm the

[14:26] daughter of a diplomat, so

[14:27] uh, a lot of traveling, and I know my

[14:29] way around an airport.

[14:31] But I'm so glad that all of that

[14:33] traveling has brought me here.

[14:36] It feels very special to share this

[14:38] space, uh, and to share a little bit

[14:41] about my story.

[14:43] Mhm.

[14:45] So, I was initially going to talk about

[14:45] like what I'm studying, but maybe I'll

[14:47] get there. Uh,

[14:48] Nyaz's framing invited me

[14:51] to reflect on what should you all know

[14:54] about me? And

[14:56] maybe maybe a story. So, in in high

[14:58] school, around the time that I first

[15:01] discovered like contemplative practice,

[15:03] meditation, I had an English teacher.

[15:06] So, one of my favorite things that I've

[15:07] noticed, uh, from coming at

[15:09] from arriving in in Plum Village is that

[15:11] a lot of peo- a lot of people

[15:14] talk about their favorite teachers. Uh,

[15:16] there's one very famous teacher around

[15:18] here, but a lot of other teachers, and I

[15:21] I love hearing those stories. And I

[15:23] connect with a teacher that I had in

[15:26] high school who was an English teacher

[15:28] named Aaron, also from Canada. Um, I

[15:31] didn't know I didn't have any connection

[15:33] at the time, but

[15:34] he had this incredible presence, super

[15:37] funny, super wise,

[15:40] and I was just so curious to learn more

[15:42] about how he makes sense of life.

[15:45] And so I had two free periods in in high

[15:47] school, and uh, one of those free

[15:49] periods I would do some homework, and

[15:52] then the other I would just go sit in

[15:53] his office.

[15:54] And then, uh,

[15:56] I started typing up a long list of

[15:59] questions that I would ask Aaron.

[16:01] And each free period would be dedicated

[16:03] to a different question, and we just

[16:05] talk about it. So, it was a podcast that

[16:06] we never hit record on, is what I would

[16:09] phrase it as. And some of the questions

[16:10] were like deep about, so

[16:13] the topic of free will has come up

[16:14] between conversations.

[16:16] Uh, and also like, Aaron, what's

[16:17] something that bothers you even though

[16:19] it shouldn't?

[16:20] So, we we covered a lot of range, and I

[16:22] think seeing learning through that

[16:26] medium,

[16:28] uh, has had such a lasting impact on me.

[16:31] Uh, and I I think that like got the fire

[16:33] burning to like keep asking those

[16:35] questions cuz I I was so rewarding, that

[16:37] experience. And

[16:38] uh, the reason I bring up the story was

[16:40] because I asked Aaron one day, uh, the

[16:43] question, "Who's the wisest person you

[16:45] know?"

[16:47] So, this is me trying to be smart. I'm

[16:48] like, "Okay, so Aaron is one of the

[16:49] wisest people that I know. So, if I

[16:51] found out who he thinks is the wisest

[16:53] person, I'm like one chain or I'm closer

[16:56] to the end of the chain and infinite

[16:58] wisdom."

[17:00] And then Aaron goes, I'd never heard

[17:02] this name before, Thich Nhat Hanh.

[17:05] And it was the first time I heard that

[17:07] name.

[17:08] And then that

[17:11] I didn't really come back to it for a

[17:12] while. I got one of Thay's books and

[17:14] read it in between, and then I got to

[17:17] university and met Ellie.

[17:19] And long story short, I'm here.

[17:23] Uh, and I I sometimes think about the

[17:25] fact that like me, my my footprints

[17:27] might overlay a little bit of like where

[17:30] Thay might have stood, and so it is like

[17:32] a full full circle moment is how it

[17:34] feels.

[17:35] Uh, and so, yeah, I I felt inspired to

[17:37] share that because I think that's the

[17:40] same energy that I strive to bring to

[17:43] like the intellectual spaces that I'm in

[17:45] is it's me and I have a list of

[17:47] questions, maybe not written, but like

[17:48] in here. Uh, and then we chatted out,

[17:50] and I'm super curious to hear the other

[17:52] person's perspective. And in university

[17:55] that often looks like, um,

[17:57] learning more about contemplative

[17:59] science, cuz that's become my my core

[18:01] interest. So, I'm studying neuroscience

[18:03] with minors in philosophy and Buddhist

[18:05] psychology, and I'm always up for a

[18:08] conversation.

[18:21] Uh, dear Thay, dear community,

[18:24] um,

[18:25] mhm,

[18:26] very happy to be sitting with you all

[18:29] today. Um,

[18:32] I know I can feel

[18:35] my anxious mind

[18:37] with me, and I'm saying hello.

[18:39] Um, and I'm making the invisible

[18:42] visible.

[18:43] Um,

[18:47] I

[18:50] I'll start off with how maybe I ended up

[18:53] here in Plum Village. Um, and so, I met

[18:58] Ellie in my second year of my

[19:02] undergraduate degree.

[19:04] And, um,

[19:06] I had just transferred campuses, and I

[19:09] was like, "Mhm,

[19:10] Buddhism, Psychology, and Mental Health

[19:11] minor, this this seems interesting."

[19:14] And

[19:17] I landed in Ellie's Socially Engaged

[19:20] Buddhism course.

[19:21] And, um,

[19:23] this is where

[19:25] I first

[19:26] was introduced to Thay and to the Plum

[19:29] Village community, and I started

[19:32] practicing with Wake Up Toronto.

[19:35] Um,

[19:37] and

[19:40] I realized how safe I felt.

[19:44] Mhm.

[19:46] And I've

[19:47] been so lucky to take all of Ellie's

[19:49] courses, and now I am currently also

[19:53] taking a course with Ellie um as I'm

[19:55] here. So, as my final course of my

[19:58] undergraduate degree.

[20:00] Um and funny enough,

[20:04] I'm not sure how many years ago, but

[20:06] when I was

[20:07] just

[20:08] in 11th grade, um I sat on a panel of

[20:16] teens at a Sick Kids

[20:19] symposium. Um I had no idea what I was

[20:22] going to be doing.

[20:25] And um I was then in class where uh a

[20:29] class that Ellie co-teaches with Brother

[20:31] Pháp Linh um and Rob, Ellie's husband,

[20:36] says, "Lauren, I have a photo of you

[20:39] that I found

[20:40] from years ago." And I was like, "Hmm."

[20:44] Ellie goes,

[20:45] "Give give a little more."

[20:47] Um

[20:48] and

[20:49] Ellie and and Rob were there. And so,

[20:53] we've known each other um well,

[20:57] in the historic on different scales and

[20:59] then in the ultimate

[21:01] forever.

[21:03] Um and then in terms of

[21:07] I hold uh yes,

[21:09] my minor in Buddhism, psychology, and

[21:12] mental health. And then I am studying

[21:15] biodiversity and conservation biology

[21:19] um and environmental biology.

[21:22] So, I'll be finishing my undergrad and

[21:24] starting my master's in September.

[21:27] And

[21:28] well,

[21:30] I love turtles.

[21:32] Um and I love the Earth.

[21:38] Um

[21:41] and really, I'm just so grateful to be

[21:44] here with the trees, with the people um

[21:47] all just

[21:49] really feeling the interconnectedness.

[21:52] So,

[21:54] Hmm.

[21:54] Yeah.

[22:33] Thank you so much to our um panelists

[22:35] for sharing a little bit about

[22:37] themselves.

[22:38] Um I kind of find it very beautiful that

[22:41] we are sitting in the uh

[22:43] Assembly of Stars Hall and listening to

[22:46] how the stars have aligned

[22:48] through the longevity of time and how we

[22:51] all ended up here in this place in this

[22:53] time.

[22:55] And as a continuation of this morning's

[22:56] conversation, when we were talking about

[22:59] how do we integrate our spiritual

[23:01] practice with our scientific research,

[23:04] we kind of already see it manifesting

[23:06] here right now, right? We see it through

[23:08] Ellie's work and through uh this

[23:11] scientific inquiry and research of

[23:13] Ellie's students as well.

[23:16] Um

[23:17] I had a I have an advisor and I'm lucky

[23:20] to have very many wonderful teachers.

[23:23] And my advisor uh one time said to me,

[23:27] "When you step into a classroom, you

[23:30] better be able to explain why the hell

[23:32] should anyone care about the things that

[23:34] you are saying.

[23:36] You better be able to explain to 30

[23:38] students, 50 students, 72 students why

[23:41] they should spend their time sitting and

[23:43] listening to you for 4 months in the

[23:45] year."

[23:47] Right? And so,

[23:48] I think in the Buddhist monastic

[23:50] training, too, especially in the Plum

[23:52] Village tradition, you you've got to

[23:54] explain your why as well. Why do I want

[23:56] to be a nun? Why do I Why am I here? Why

[23:58] am I practicing? Why am I showing up in

[24:00] this space? And why should anyone care

[24:02] what I'm doing right now?

[24:04] And so, I am going to take that of my

[24:08] teacher

[24:10] and as as Ellie said, transfer it on to

[24:12] you all and ask you about your why.

[24:16] Right? Why Why integrate spiritual

[24:18] practice into your scientific research?

[24:20] Why do you do the things that you do?

[24:22] Why should everyone in this room care

[24:24] about the things that you do?

[24:46] Hmm. My why?

[24:48] So, uh

[24:50] This is broken up nicely. Okay, so I met

[24:52] Erin

[24:54] uh and I was also kind of stressed in

[24:55] high school. Uh

[24:57] probably took my academics a little too

[24:58] seriously and myself a little too

[25:00] seriously. And that's around the time

[25:02] that I started meditating just to like

[25:05] deal with stress.

[25:07] Uh and then the more I meditated, the

[25:09] more I realized there's so much more

[25:11] here than stress reduction, even though

[25:13] that's how it was advertised to me. I

[25:15] realized I'm learning so many cool

[25:17] things about my mind and how I relate to

[25:20] the world and the world itself. Uh and

[25:22] that there's there's art here and

[25:24] there's connection to nature. It just so

[25:26] much more vast than I ever imagined it

[25:29] would be.

[25:29] And I never left. Like I don't think I

[25:32] left that initial place of of

[25:35] fascination. So, why integrate spiritual

[25:38] practice?

[25:39] It almost like

[25:41] the feeling of connection and feeling of

[25:44] uh of satisfaction of having found this

[25:47] wonderful thing,

[25:48] it almost

[25:50] escapes reason. Like I don't feel a need

[25:52] to justify it anymore cuz I feel it so

[25:54] palpably that like this is the thing to

[25:55] do for me

[25:57] uh as opposed to other decisions where I

[25:59] might approach it with rational

[26:00] reasoning of pros and cons and and why

[26:02] dedicate attention towards this. This

[26:04] just seems so important to me of like if

[26:06] I'm leading a more wholesome life and

[26:10] I'm constantly engaged and find things

[26:13] to be curious about, I I find no reason

[26:16] not to dedicate my time towards studying

[26:19] contemplative practice. This is is

[26:21] personally how I feel.

[26:31] Hmm.

[26:32] Um for my why,

[26:38] so I am studying, yes, biodiversity,

[26:44] conservation, and specifically

[26:47] uh herpetology. And herpetology is the

[26:50] study of reptiles and amphibians.

[26:53] Um

[26:56] I

[26:58] wasn't sure when I went into university

[27:00] where I would really end up. Um even as

[27:04] a child, it wasn't like, "Yeah, turtles,

[27:07] snakes, lizards." And people ask me

[27:09] that. They go,

[27:11] "Were you obsessed with turtles when you

[27:13] were a kid?" Like,

[27:14] Hmm.

[27:16] They were

[27:17] scattered here and there. Um

[27:20] turtle earrings, you know, the little

[27:22] figures. But I wasn't like, "Yes."

[27:25] And then

[27:26] I started learning more about

[27:30] how wonderful and

[27:34] weird our planet is and the diversity

[27:39] and

[27:41] really that interbeing in every

[27:44] ecosystem

[27:46] and

[27:47] what even is an ecosystem is a good

[27:49] question.

[27:50] Um

[27:52] So, for the why,

[27:55] um

[27:56] that curiosity and that connection of

[28:01] I am the Earth

[28:03] and the Earth is me. Um

[28:09] And following that just innate feeling

[28:12] and leading with my heart

[28:15] uh is what has led me on this path.

[28:18] Um

[28:19] and

[28:21] I

[28:22] can bring in my practice

[28:25] um

[28:26] to my work and it may not be

[28:31] in

[28:32] a very obvious sense, perhaps, as

[28:36] um in other fields.

[28:38] And also when I'm

[28:41] walking

[28:42] and listening and bringing the qualities

[28:46] that

[28:48] have been cultivated through practicing

[28:51] with the sangha and

[28:53] seeing

[28:55] all beings in the Earth as an extension.

[28:59] Like the Earth

[29:01] is we're one big sangha, I think.

[29:04] Um

[29:06] And

[29:07] yeah, just how can I show up with my

[29:10] full being?

[29:12] Um

[29:14] and

[29:16] listen and lead with my heart. And this

[29:19] is this is why.

[29:21] Hmm.

[29:30] Hmm. I'm inspired to share my why, but

[29:32] might I be allowed to ask a follow-up

[29:34] question? Just while we're I'll I'll

[29:36] share my why when one of you remind me

[29:37] I'm supposed to do that, but I was just

[29:39] curious, you know, from from hearing

[29:41] both of you right now and some of our

[29:43] conversations that we've had, I was just

[29:45] curious for both of you as you you kind

[29:47] of bring forward these aspirations.

[29:50] Um, do you find others like in your

[29:52] fields are others bringing that approach

[29:55] when you're out in the field with them

[29:57] doing field work?

[30:03] Thank you, Ellie. This is a good

[30:05] question.

[30:06] Um,

[30:08] yes and no.

[30:12] There's a lot of um,

[30:15] I think oh,

[30:17] there are some people who yes, their

[30:18] connection to the earth like that is

[30:20] very present.

[30:22] And also it's well, we need to get this

[30:25] done.

[30:27] This is for the research. This is for

[30:30] there's there's a little bit of a

[30:33] lack of enjoyment and um,

[30:37] I

[30:39] finding the wonder of it all

[30:42] in what

[30:44] we do. Um,

[30:46] and also the

[30:48] the aspiration that people bring or

[30:51] convey. Um,

[30:55] I think that

[30:58] is also that has yeah, a different

[31:01] flavor to it.

[31:03] Um,

[31:06] and I remember my first time doing field

[31:08] work. I

[31:10] we all lived in a house together. So

[31:13] there were

[31:13] five of us in a room and um, it was

[31:17] funny yesterday when I was like, oh, do

[31:19] does anyone live with their co-workers

[31:21] like monastics?

[31:23] And I was like, well, I do.

[31:25] Um, and

[31:28] the one morning I said, does anyone want

[31:30] to join me in

[31:32] a tea meditation?

[31:34] And we sat around the table and

[31:39] then we would kind of do that throughout

[31:41] and

[31:43] bringing in how can we touch

[31:46] moments of

[31:48] reflection and and calm

[31:51] and

[31:52] connection.

[31:54] Um,

[31:56] that

[31:58] and how that has maybe you can see it

[32:00] come in throughout the day.

[32:03] Um,

[32:04] where people notice

[32:05] there there's a different awareness.

[32:07] Um,

[32:09] yeah, I can I can see the differences.

[32:12] Yeah.

[32:16] Maybe I'll jump in and then do if you

[32:18] want to add something first, I'll

[32:20] Sure, I can make it quick. Like I the

[32:21] part of the reason I think I chose

[32:22] contemplative science as my interest is

[32:24] that I'd get to hang out with

[32:25] contemplatives who are really smart and

[32:28] awesome to hang out with and they I

[32:29] learned so much from them and they they

[32:32] challenge me to think differently so

[32:34] regularly yet in a gentle way and I

[32:36] think that's a rare quality that it's

[32:38] like it has a gravitational pull for me

[32:39] that I keep like searching for. Yeah.

[32:44] Yeah, thank you and like the why I was I

[32:46] was kind of reminded this this question

[32:48] of um, maybe I can do a little bit of a

[32:51] fat plan game which was just to remind

[32:53] me

[32:53] who in this room maybe you can raise

[32:55] your hands if if some part of your

[32:56] current work identity includes doing

[32:59] research.

[33:02] Okay, and then my next question is um,

[33:04] who here would say when they're doing

[33:06] research they're consistently touching

[33:09] joy?

[33:13] Yeah, like okay. So

[33:15] just just from sitting up here just like

[33:16] a quick a quick

[33:18] survey here. We had a lot of hands doing

[33:20] research and a lot less hands touching

[33:22] joy.

[33:23] Um,

[33:25] and

[33:26] you know, this is also a curiosity for

[33:27] me. I'm I'm glad you brought that up.

[33:29] Why do I do what I do? Um, and I love

[33:32] you know, Mark Mark is an also colleague

[33:34] of mine at the University of Toronto. We

[33:36] love to cook some things up together.

[33:38] You know, when I think about it, you

[33:40] know, there's some wise on paper maybe

[33:42] to share like when I first started doing

[33:44] my PhD as a young researcher. I grew up

[33:48] in this tradition and so for me, you

[33:51] know, Thich Nhat Hanh for short Thich

[33:53] Nhat Hanh we call him teacher.

[33:55] Plum Village was just like in my bones

[33:58] and I remember starting to read some of

[33:59] the academic peer-reviewed research

[34:02] articles in the field of mindfulness and

[34:05] contemplative science and I started

[34:07] noticing that there was often

[34:11] lots of citations for the psychologists

[34:13] or

[34:14] you know, more maybe contemporary

[34:15] Western often white men

[34:19] in the articles and almost never a

[34:21] citation for any contemplative

[34:24] traditions.

[34:25] I would sometimes read a paper and think

[34:27] like, oh, it said they were doing a meta

[34:29] meditation. Which one? And that was it.

[34:32] I was like, how am I supposed to know as

[34:34] a scientist what was tested if it's not

[34:38] cited. That's like as an academic

[34:40] institution like we have an ethical code

[34:43] of conduct to cite our sources

[34:46] and there was all these sources I

[34:47] couldn't find citations for. I went to a

[34:50] conference once and I heard someone

[34:52] presenting on their research in the

[34:54] field and they were they said they were

[34:55] going to lead a practice and they led in

[34:57] out deep slow calm ease smile release

[35:00] which some of you will know this is like

[35:03] a classic Plum Village practice. So I

[35:06] went up to them after, you know, I was

[35:07] in my early 20s, my tail was wagging. I

[35:09] was like, I'm going to meet a Thich Nhat

[35:11] Hanh Plum Villager who's a researcher. I

[35:13] went up and I said, ah, that meditation

[35:17] from Thich Nhat Hanh. Who? From Thich

[35:19] Nhat Hanh. Who?

[35:21] I said the the keyword guided practice

[35:24] you just did. Oh, no, no, that was Dr.

[35:26] So-and-so. That's where I got it from.

[35:27] Didn't want to engage.

[35:30] And so I I tell this story cuz it was it

[35:32] was kind of heartbreaking and actually

[35:33] like a little delusioning as a young

[35:36] researcher in this field at that time to

[35:38] go

[35:40] why aren't we citing our sources?

[35:42] Why aren't we honoring this? What does

[35:44] that mean? And coming to understand more

[35:46] as I have what skillful means in terms

[35:49] of you know, this is a whole other talk

[35:51] but what has and hasn't been included?

[35:54] How have we transferred things to

[35:56] mindfulness-based interventions? And

[35:58] like so many thanks and you know, earth

[36:02] touching to to the scientists who have

[36:05] brought this into fields, who thought

[36:07] about these pieces. Like there's so much

[36:09] richness in the scholarship that has

[36:12] come before us. So I like just a deep of

[36:15] gratitude, you know, to the coining of

[36:18] the term MBI like it lets us bring

[36:20] things into spaces.

[36:21] And I started as a as a qualitative

[36:24] researcher.

[36:25] We have this concept about concepts

[36:28] which is we would say a concept or a

[36:30] phenomena. So let's say

[36:33] the practice of mindfulness.

[36:36] We say a concept is flawed if it's

[36:38] missing cases.

[36:41] And so what this would say is say in our

[36:42] field we have like a lot of research

[36:44] around MBSR mindfulness-based stress

[36:46] reduction and that's one case in this

[36:50] concept that we have. And so we can love

[36:54] that case and get tons of richness and

[36:55] depth from it and what other cases are

[36:58] we missing to have a full illustration

[37:01] of what's possible.

[37:03] And so this is part of my rationale as

[37:06] you know, we like to fill a gap in order

[37:08] to get funding

[37:09] and so part of my rationale going into

[37:12] my PhD was this proposal. And I love I

[37:16] also want to say I love the language of

[37:19] adding a case to a concept cuz as a

[37:22] scientist I also

[37:24] I'm really curious as like a human

[37:26] being, you know, I've taken the the 14

[37:28] mindfulness trainings. I'm now I just

[37:30] became a baby Dharma teacher in this

[37:31] tradition.

[37:33] And

[37:35] we are invited in our practice to be

[37:38] aware of our thoughts, our speech and

[37:40] our action.

[37:42] That these are imprints we leave on the

[37:44] earth and in the world.

[37:46] And I think about this as a scientist

[37:49] when I make a rationale or an argument

[37:51] or I publish a paper.

[37:54] Like what are my thoughts and my speech

[37:56] and actions that I am putting into this

[37:58] world? And so often in science I also

[38:01] found there's some violence in the way

[38:03] we publish our work because the kind of

[38:05] like skit I like to do about a

[38:07] peer-reviewed journal it starts being

[38:08] like here's what came before me. So like

[38:10] I should add to it but like here's why

[38:12] it's not good enough the gap I'm going

[38:14] to fill.

[38:15] And I go faster when I do my skit. Sorry

[38:18] for for language. I'll go fast for a

[38:19] moment just for the skit and then I'll

[38:21] slow down. Um,

[38:23] so so we make this argument, right? It's

[38:26] like our lit review is like

[38:28] here's what came before. So I'm

[38:29] justified. But like here's what's

[38:31] missing. So I shall fill it and be

[38:34] better.

[38:35] And then like, oh, but you know, I don't

[38:37] know everything so don't worry.

[38:41] What I'm curious about is this language

[38:43] of

[38:45] sometimes needing to tear down or

[38:47] dismiss or say like here's why I'm

[38:49] better to get my funding. Right? And so

[38:53] I just wanted to bring light to this

[38:56] this concept adding a case to a concept

[38:59] to me is also this question of like as a

[39:02] scientist can I be curious and explore

[39:05] and be adding rather than detracting,

[39:09] rather than putting down other research.

[39:12] You know, I'll just say explicitly

[39:13] sometimes when I'm when I share that I'm

[39:15] studying Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings,

[39:17] someone will say, oh, well, then what do

[39:18] you think of MBSR?

[39:19] You know.

[39:20] And what do you think of the other

[39:22] things that are in your field with this

[39:23] idea

[39:25] that I'm going to make them my enemy,

[39:27] that I'm going to position myself as

[39:29] smarter or better.

[39:31] So I'm just interested again that our

[39:33] practice is making the invisible

[39:34] visible. So I also think something

[39:37] that's beautiful about what we're doing

[39:39] here and I think this question of of why

[39:42] like why do I do the work I do, the

[39:44] research, the classes. I'm just

[39:47] reflecting on this in this moment. This

[39:50] is a slightly new idea for me.

[39:53] I think part of it also is this deep

[39:55] intention from tying this community to

[39:59] like cultivate a peaceful loving world.

[40:03] Like at the very heart.

[40:06] And you know, each one of us has a

[40:07] different language or way we might do

[40:09] this in the world. Uh so there's a bunch

[40:11] of us here who have this label of

[40:13] scientists. Uh we might propose the

[40:15] Buddha was an original scientist, had a

[40:17] great research question about suffering

[40:19] and happiness. So maybe all of us here

[40:21] are researchers in a way, but for me I

[40:24] think ever since I was a little kid,

[40:26] like I love to tell stories and I love

[40:29] to like

[40:30] figure out what was under the hood of

[40:32] something and bring that together. So

[40:34] this language of science really makes

[40:36] sense to me. Um so yeah, when I think

[40:39] about the work I do, this intention to

[40:42] bring tie into the literature, to add a

[40:44] case to the concept, to do it in this

[40:46] like loving and open way,

[40:48] um I think that is maybe my why is what

[40:52] does it mean to create like a peaceful

[40:54] and loving world? Um and for me in this

[40:57] tradition, there's so there's so much of

[41:00] that thought technology that is here. Um

[41:04] and growing up in the children's and

[41:05] teens program, I can remember Thich Nhat

[41:07] Hanh, he used to give a talk to like the

[41:09] teens or kids and then let us go play.

[41:11] Uh well, the song it kept sitting

[41:12] through the Dharma talk.

[41:14] And um I remember him just like looking

[41:17] at us sometimes being like this is

[41:19] entrusted to you. And this real

[41:22] permission uh that this tradition has as

[41:25] like a living breathing tradition to

[41:28] keep cooking up the Dharma to borrow a

[41:30] phrase from brother Phap Linh uh

[41:34] that we're invited to keep translating

[41:37] it into the language of our times. And

[41:39] so I hope maybe this why is like all of

[41:42] us here to inspire each other uh to do

[41:45] that work. And like these two, as I'm

[41:46] sitting between them, you know, I can I

[41:49] can feel that cooking that we're all

[41:50] doing.

[41:55] Thank you so much uh again to the

[41:57] panelists. Um I uh I I think this is uh

[42:02] my sort of shout-out to the senior

[42:04] scientists in the room. As you're

[42:06] listening to these young scientists talk

[42:08] about their joy Yamdula's joy in just

[42:11] doing the thing that she wants to do cuz

[42:13] it brings her joy. And then uh listening

[42:16] to Lauren think about the way that she

[42:18] does the things she does cuz she's

[42:19] feeling connected and she's curious

[42:21] about the world. And and Ellie's mission

[42:23] of doing the things that she does

[42:25] because

[42:26] because she believes that this world

[42:28] could be better. She believes that

[42:29] there's love is possible and love can

[42:31] permeate in this world and therefore she

[42:33] does the things that she does. And so

[42:35] this is an invitation in fact to the

[42:36] senior scientist in the room who didn't

[42:38] raise their hand when they asked when

[42:40] the question was asked, do you feel joy

[42:42] when you do your research? To think

[42:45] about your why again. And then think

[42:47] about

[42:48] for posterity, you know, when you when

[42:50] you have young scientists come into

[42:52] under your under your wings how can you

[42:55] protect that joy? How you can you can

[42:58] you protect that vision that they have,

[43:01] what we call in Buddhism the beginner's

[43:02] mind, right? When you step into the lab

[43:05] with that with that aspiration of I

[43:08] actually want to do something

[43:10] to help humanity.

[43:13] Um one of the things that Ellie said

[43:16] about the wonder of it all and everyone

[43:18] here being a scientist reminds me of

[43:21] you know, it it it made me think of you

[43:24] know, when we're here and the theme of

[43:26] our retreat is the wonder of it all. And

[43:29] my assumption when I say, oh the wonder

[43:31] of it all is that we are thinking about

[43:34] the world and the world as a wonder that

[43:36] we are marveling at, that we are

[43:38] observing.

[43:40] But then I also think it's a joke, it's

[43:42] a trick cuz these monks and nuns, they

[43:44] never they're never that simple, right?

[43:46] The wonder of it all is actually

[43:47] ourselves. Like we are ourselves a

[43:50] wonder of this world and and worthy to

[43:53] be marveled at and worthy to be curious

[43:55] of and worthy of love and worthy of joy

[43:58] and worthy of all the things that our

[44:00] young panelists here have talked about.

[44:02] We ourselves are worthy of the same care

[44:05] and attention that we give to our

[44:06] research as well.

[44:08] And in Madhyamaka philosophy they there

[44:12] is a line that says often times we we

[44:14] think that we are observing the world,

[44:17] but in fact we are of the world. This is

[44:20] goes back to Mark's point this morning.

[44:22] We're creating it all the time. We're

[44:24] not just this passive observer, but we

[44:27] are creating it all the time. And so

[44:29] when we think about this when I'm

[44:31] thinking about this philosophy, I'm

[44:34] always thinking about whether I'm

[44:35] teaching a class at the business school,

[44:37] at the law school, at the Ed school or

[44:39] at the divinity school, I'm always

[44:40] thinking about what are my ethical

[44:43] obligations?

[44:45] And so as a young scientist and as you

[44:48] are imagining a future, as you are

[44:51] imagine sharpening, I'm obsessed right

[44:53] now with a moral imagination

[44:56] what are your ethical obligations as

[44:58] you're thinking about the field and

[44:59] thinking about the things that you'd

[45:01] like to contribute?

[45:20] When I think about what I would like to

[45:23] contribute, um

[45:28] I

[45:31] when I'm in the field, um

[45:35] I know that I I have this aspiration to

[45:38] bring my full being

[45:42] and to be fully present,

[45:45] um

[45:47] and in that I and I think in all

[45:50] research and just in living life, we are

[45:55] we can

[45:57] do and have a kind of deep listening and

[46:01] it may not be what we're

[46:03] listening to a human speak, but for me,

[46:07] um

[46:09] deeply listening

[46:11] to not not just sounds, but

[46:16] we can listen to ourselves, um

[46:20] what are we taking in? Um and then how

[46:25] is that

[46:26] coming out? How are we showing up? Um

[46:32] and

[46:34] really recognizing how much I honor and

[46:37] appreciate

[46:39] the relationship I have when I get to

[46:42] learn

[46:43] from the earth, um

[46:48] and how can I embrace

[46:52] suffering and joy?

[46:57] And

[46:59] um

[47:03] I was having a hard time because I'm

[47:06] missing turtle nesting season back in

[47:10] um

[47:10] Ontario.

[47:12] And I was feeling guilty.

[47:15] And someone here said to me, well Lauren

[47:19] think about that feeling

[47:22] and hold on to it because it means that

[47:25] we're

[47:26] I'm where I'm meant to be.

[47:28] Um

[47:29] and if I didn't love what I was doing

[47:32] that wouldn't come up.

[47:36] And

[47:37] and imagining a future where oh, well,

[47:41] actually now you said this in Ellie's

[47:44] guest in one of Ellie's courses as a

[47:46] guest lecturer. Uh how can I breathe

[47:51] life into the insight of interbeing?

[47:56] Whether that be with humans, more than

[47:59] humans, um

[48:02] the soil, the water

[48:06] recognizing

[48:08] and feeling interbeing

[48:11] how can I

[48:13] how am I creating a world

[48:15] where we can all deeply listen to one

[48:18] another

[48:20] and witness and embrace our suffering

[48:24] and our joy to

[48:26] find where do we want to be?

[48:30] And listening to leading with the heart

[48:34] can can we um

[48:37] create a more joyful place

[48:41] where um

[48:45] maybe

[48:47] um

[48:50] just thinking about

[48:53] if there was the little bit if we had

[48:56] that that joy, that spark

[48:59] would our world be a different place?

[49:01] Because if we're not doing what we love

[49:04] and not seeing what is it that we love?

[49:08] Why why?

[49:12] Then we can maybe get a little bit lost,

[49:14] um

[49:16] so yeah.

[49:25] I was inspired to jump in and I also I'm

[49:28] I'm taking in this moment both of like,

[49:30] oh what will I say and then not over

[49:32] planning it and then also just wanting

[49:34] to do this.

[49:39] Um

[49:41] I think for me as I yeah, imagine as you

[49:44] had you've been saying like to like

[49:46] imagine the like the moral Give me that

[49:48] sentence again.

[49:50] Your your moral imagination.

[49:52] Delicious. It's delicious.

[49:55] Um

[49:57] you know, I what came up for me also is

[49:59] I was saying I'm a I'm a baby Dharma

[50:01] teacher here and then I'm a a baby

[50:03] professor over there.

[50:05] Um

[50:06] And I can say I'm already starting to

[50:08] feel some of that burnout and

[50:10] disillusionment

[50:12] after finishing uh my PhD, getting to

[50:14] start teaching

[50:16] and already having so much of my time

[50:20] go into the bureaucracy and the meetings

[50:23] instead of just doing what I love.

[50:26] Um and it's maybe a question I have for

[50:28] all of us. Like

[50:30] what what is in these spaces? What are

[50:32] the pushers and the pullers? Sometimes

[50:34] when I come back to Plum Village it

[50:35] feels like I'm like

[50:57] As we take a moment to breathe with the

[50:59] sound of that plane, I'm reminded of a

[51:02] talk of Thich Nhat Hanh in Tampa,

[51:04] Florida, I think.

[51:06] On Buddhist psychology where you can see

[51:07] him breathing each time a helicopter

[51:10] flies. And he also shares that it's not

[51:13] just uh the practice of breathing as in

[51:17] ah bell, he was actually holding in that

[51:19] moment the uh

[51:21] the feeling of the memories of war that

[51:23] brought with that. And so I just wanted

[51:25] to maybe just invite a sound of the bell

[51:27] in this moment just to be here for

[51:29] ourselves, for our ancestors and

[51:32] those places in the world right now that

[51:34] are hearing that sound and not feeling

[51:37] safe as I still feel in this moment.

[52:27] It's interesting to have a microphone

[52:29] and I just invite in I was sharing the

[52:31] other day one of our one of our

[52:33] bodhisattvas says I vow to listen so

[52:35] deeply that I hear what is said and left

[52:37] unsaid.

[52:39] And there's so much in this moment and I

[52:41] I look to some of my colleagues and

[52:42] friends who I know

[52:44] have family in different parts of this

[52:45] world and just want to hold that.

[52:49] And I'm going to continue this panel and

[52:52] I want to share part of what I see in

[52:54] that to thank Brother Faplin who's

[52:56] sitting just over there also. It's it's

[52:58] so beautiful to present in a space where

[53:00] you can look out and feel beside you all

[53:03] of your your sangha of of love and care.

[53:07] Um who gave a talk at the at the June

[53:10] Ojai retreat last year inviting us to

[53:12] consider

[53:14] what action is that sometimes we can sit

[53:16] in a room

[53:18] cultivating peace in ourselves to have

[53:20] this beautiful privilege to walk on this

[53:24] peaceful earth here.

[53:26] And sometimes we put this into the

[53:27] bucket of rest and self-care

[53:30] which it is. It's beautiful to be here.

[53:33] And can we see sitting in peace as a

[53:36] real action?

[53:38] As a real act as this world pushes us to

[53:41] feel maybe anger, hate and fear

[53:44] that it is also a real action

[53:47] to cultivate something else.

[53:49] To be in peace together and

[53:52] I think this kind of loops back into

[53:54] what I wanted to continue here about

[53:57] yeah, how do we bring joy back into our

[53:59] work?

[54:01] And this this peace that I can already

[54:03] feel from the institution I'm in of some

[54:05] harm that it's causing me.

[54:08] Some harm that I see it causing my

[54:10] students.

[54:12] I have um

[54:14] Oh, can I

[54:15] disclose slightly some known to

[54:17] uh

[54:18] I have this being sitting next to me

[54:22] who I have watched and you can hear some

[54:24] of the love and care and curiosity going

[54:28] into your work.

[54:30] And watching this year a

[54:32] relationship to a supervisor and uh

[54:35] and some of the damage that caused.

[54:38] And it hurt me, too.

[54:41] Hm.

[54:42] We had tears together about it.

[54:46] And I I bring this up. I can actually

[54:48] feel emotion in me watching myself and

[54:51] others who want to come into these

[54:53] spaces and I I invite all of you. Maybe

[54:55] you've had this experience in your past.

[54:58] Or we ask this question, what are your

[54:59] spheres of influence?

[55:01] Who might you be a supervisor for in an

[55:03] academic space?

[55:05] In the monastic community, maybe you

[55:07] have young ones and maybe one day you

[55:09] will mentor.

[55:11] And this this position of power we have

[55:15] that has this opportunity

[55:18] to cause some real harm and this

[55:21] opportunity

[55:23] to like build loving communities. Like

[55:27] to build loving, inclusive communities.

[55:29] It's part of the the phrase for Wake Up.

[55:32] The aspiration that Thich Nhat Hanh gave

[55:35] to Wake Up as young adults community to

[55:37] aspire to build loving, inclusive,

[55:40] sustainable communities. It's in a song

[55:42] by Joe Riley that we like to rap.

[55:46] And I think for me as a young professor,

[55:48] one of the things that I am orienting

[55:51] myself towards all the time, I think one

[55:53] of the greatest gifts, the thing that

[55:54] like keeps me sustained

[55:57] has been this opportunity in every class

[55:59] I teach, every supervision, anyone that

[56:01] I'm doing research with

[56:03] I have a sphere of influence there.

[56:06] I get to cook up

[56:08] what an assignment is, what a grade is,

[56:11] how an exam is written.

[56:14] For my exams, I I think you were both in

[56:16] this class so you can share your

[56:17] experiences with it. For an exam at the

[56:19] end of a fourth-year research

[56:20] methodologies course on mindfulness that

[56:23] I teach where we get to like dive into

[56:24] the peer-reviewed journals and just

[56:26] really nerd out on science and Dharma.

[56:30] For the final exam, a few things. The

[56:32] first thing is I really encourage my

[56:34] students to know

[56:37] that we each have a job here. Like if I

[56:38] did my job well

[56:40] you shouldn't and you showed up and

[56:42] engaged in everything I invited you to

[56:44] engage with, you shouldn't have to

[56:46] study.

[56:47] That the exam is your opportunity to

[56:49] demonstrate what you learned. And if we

[56:52] both showed up for our part of this

[56:55] learning adventure

[56:57] then you're ready.

[56:59] Can you trust yourself? Can you

[57:01] essentially trust your store because I

[57:02] think you can.

[57:04] And then at that final exam, I bring

[57:07] juice boxes and cookies and we come into

[57:10] the room. It's a 3-hour class and the

[57:13] exam only takes 2 hours. So we take the

[57:14] first half an hour

[57:17] to do a meditative practice.

[57:20] And

[57:22] at the first year I said to calm your

[57:24] nervous system and I actually got some

[57:25] feedback from students that like that

[57:27] was not helpful.

[57:30] And they're right cuz we know from like

[57:32] a neurophysiological

[57:33] perspective actually right before an

[57:35] exam, it's healthy for your nervous

[57:36] system to be kicking up. It's getting

[57:37] you ready to go. I have my two

[57:39] colleagues, Mark and Alex are cog

[57:41] scientists. They're like, yeah, like

[57:43] uh so we adapted

[57:47] it with feedback. This co-creation thing

[57:50] that

[57:50] to just caring for our nervous system.

[57:53] To welcome in, you know, the chemicals

[57:56] that are getting us ready for an exam

[57:58] cuz we want them.

[58:00] And we don't want them to overwhelm us.

[58:03] We don't want the exam to be a paper

[58:05] tiger that makes us, you know

[58:07] So we have this fun moment where we talk

[58:10] we make the invisible visible.

[58:13] I invite all the students in the room to

[58:14] raise their hand if they're anxious

[58:15] during exam season so we can just see

[58:17] it. We're not alone.

[58:20] Oh, hi.

[58:22] Everyone's nervous during exam season.

[58:24] Um

[58:26] and so

[58:27] again just kind of I wanted to just

[58:29] illustrate with a story. Oh, and I will

[58:31] say the last part of this is in this

[58:33] exam

[58:34] so the exam is written. The invitation

[58:36] is like choose your own adventure with a

[58:38] juice box and cookies. You know, maybe

[58:40] you're someone that's like I need my

[58:42] juice box cookie before the exam even

[58:44] starts.

[58:45] Maybe you're someone that's like partway

[58:47] through my exam, I'm going to quietly

[58:49] walk up and get a juice and cookie. Or

[58:51] maybe it's like your reward at the end.

[58:53] So everyone gets to choose. And it is

[58:54] the most joy I say when you see someone

[58:57] walking up, you're writing your exam,

[58:59] you see some movement and they're going

[59:00] to get their juice and cookie. Like feel

[59:02] the mudita. Feel the joy.

[59:05] And so we have these bells of

[59:06] mindfulness through the exam cuz someone

[59:08] goes to walk up and everyone looks up

[59:10] and smiles a little and then there's a

[59:11] little laughter.

[59:13] And I can tell you even in my class

[59:15] where I hope there's an intention for

[59:18] like safety when everyone walks in for

[59:20] that exam, the energy in the room is

[59:22] like

[59:24] And then we do the practice.

[59:26] And then we have laughter and like the

[59:28] whole the collective consciousness, it

[59:31] changes.

[59:35] And then the exam ends and and what was

[59:37] so sweet, every year, no one leaves.

[59:39] Like you're allowed to leave when the

[59:40] exam is done.

[59:42] Everyone just stays. I have other

[59:43] teachers like, "I can't get students to

[59:45] show up to class. I can't get anyone to

[59:46] talk." I'm like, "I can't make the

[59:48] students leave."

[59:51] Everyone just wants to stay cuz like

[59:54] this classroom that I didn't classroom

[59:56] during an exam

[59:58] feels like the best place to be.

[1:00:02] And so I I wanted to share this story as

[1:00:04] and this is just like one illustration

[1:00:06] of like the things I'm thinking about

[1:00:08] during the technology I take from Plum

[1:00:10] Village on like what is community and

[1:00:14] Sangha building.

[1:00:15] And I infuse it into like every step I

[1:00:18] can for everything I do in my classes.

[1:00:21] Um

[1:00:22] and and I say this because like this is

[1:00:25] what I wish

[1:00:27] for our academic learning spaces. I I

[1:00:31] it's like my deepest wish

[1:00:33] um is to give ourselves permission to be

[1:00:35] human

[1:00:37] and to like show up with our hearts

[1:00:39] because when I offer that

[1:00:42] someone was like teaching is like the

[1:00:43] most tiring part of the week and

[1:00:45] honestly the the 3-hour lectures I give

[1:00:47] every week are the things that like make

[1:00:50] my heart sing.

[1:00:52] Um cuz I get cuz I like I get to just be

[1:00:54] with Sangha.

[1:00:56] That's what we create in the classroom.

[1:00:57] That's what we create in my research

[1:00:59] labs.

[1:01:01] Um

[1:01:02] and maybe the last little story I'll

[1:01:04] tell there is just I I was sharing this

[1:01:07] the other day like before I go to say

[1:01:08] mark a paper

[1:01:11] I have a a vow and a commitment to

[1:01:12] myself to not grade papers if I'm in a

[1:01:15] bad mood.

[1:01:18] Because it it changes how I grade. It

[1:01:20] changes the comments I give.

[1:01:23] Right? And for me too, like that it's

[1:01:25] not just like what I'm giving to someone

[1:01:27] else. Like that impacts my own inner

[1:01:29] landscape. And then you can just imagine

[1:01:32] how this translates. I hope. I hope I'm

[1:01:34] giving particular qualitative research

[1:01:36] particular examples from my field or the

[1:01:39] practices and research I do that you can

[1:01:42] translate and transfer into your spaces.

[1:01:44] Where are you a supervisor?

[1:01:46] Where do you have a sphere of influence?

[1:01:48] Where do you give comments? If you're a

[1:01:50] business person and someone like gives

[1:01:51] you a memo that's going out to the

[1:01:52] company, do you only tell them what's

[1:01:54] wrong with it?

[1:01:56] And how does that impact you and that

[1:01:58] other person? Cuz if you only tell the

[1:02:01] people at work

[1:02:02] what's wrong

[1:02:04] how does that impact your neuro pathways

[1:02:06] for how you interact with your family?

[1:02:09] So these are some things I'm curious

[1:02:11] about and my yeah, my deepest hope for

[1:02:13] our institutions

[1:02:16] is to start seeing making the invisible

[1:02:18] visible. Where do we have competition

[1:02:22] and striving and do better and succeed?

[1:02:24] How are we talking about that?

[1:02:27] How are we being vulnerable as

[1:02:29] supervisors, as teachers so that our

[1:02:31] students feel safe?

[1:02:34] And maybe how can our workplaces

[1:02:37] be allowed to be our Sanghas?

[1:02:50] So this question about moral

[1:02:52] imaginations and how I'd like ethics to

[1:02:56] inform my work.

[1:02:57] Uh

[1:02:58] a phrase that Ellie mentioned

[1:03:00] hopefully every step of the way.

[1:03:02] Hopefully that's not a question that I

[1:03:03] ask right at the end of a project. Like

[1:03:05] every step of the way I'm encouraged to

[1:03:07] ask how is this contributing towards

[1:03:11] building uh

[1:03:13] more wholesome

[1:03:16] and then now we've opened uh uh

[1:03:18] Lauren's work as well like an ecology of

[1:03:21] wellness.

[1:03:22] Uh so at the individual level, at the

[1:03:24] community level, and at the society

[1:03:26] societal level, and the the

[1:03:28] environmental input as well. It's like

[1:03:30] the field of of wellness. Uh

[1:03:33] and I I also inspired to take the

[1:03:36] question in a in another direction of

[1:03:38] something that's been a big learning for

[1:03:39] me this week is to reconnect with the

[1:03:43] embodied feelings. Uh and so maybe we

[1:03:47] tap into the wisdom in the room here and

[1:03:50] I invite you all to think back to a

[1:03:53] memory of being in a space where you

[1:03:56] felt creative and that it was generative

[1:03:59] and that you were excited uh with people

[1:04:01] around you or maybe it was by yourself

[1:04:04] uh where you felt safe to think about

[1:04:05] ideas with no attachment to like is it

[1:04:07] going to happen or not but like you're

[1:04:09] just in this phase of uh this rush of

[1:04:12] creative imaginative energy uh and

[1:04:16] yeah, can you invite some of those

[1:04:19] embodied feelings back?

[1:04:21] Like really enjoying imagination. Might

[1:04:24] might have been in childhood when you

[1:04:26] were read to, could have been more

[1:04:27] recently. Uh

[1:04:36] I'm thinking back to conversations with

[1:04:38] Erin.

[1:04:42] That That's exactly what I want. Is is I

[1:04:45] want us

[1:04:46] to be able to be in that state while we

[1:04:50] address

[1:04:51] the issues that confront our society

[1:04:54] and that we can do it in a way that's

[1:04:56] sustainable for ourselves, for

[1:04:59] everything around us.

[1:05:02] And so yeah, I think that's where

[1:05:47] Um

[1:05:49] one of uh

[1:05:51] I read a social science paper that said

[1:05:53] one of the um

[1:05:55] markers of uh

[1:05:57] us knowing that we're in some dire times

[1:05:59] is that we start paying attention to

[1:06:01] artists.

[1:06:02] And um I know y'all didn't mention this.

[1:06:05] You didn't say it but when I was

[1:06:07] listening to you all reflect on your um

[1:06:10] ethical and moral obligations as you

[1:06:12] think about the work that you're doing

[1:06:15] and aspiring to do

[1:06:17] I just heard an artist speak. Right? Um

[1:06:21] from making the visible invisible

[1:06:23] visible

[1:06:24] from um working from a place of

[1:06:27] non-dissociation,

[1:06:29] fully present while addressing the

[1:06:30] problems in this world. And then also to

[1:06:34] this your words now, homie, breathing

[1:06:36] life into interbeing.

[1:06:39] Right? Breathing life into um you know,

[1:06:42] what could be considered a very ethereal

[1:06:45] concept of interbeing but making it

[1:06:48] really pragmatic in this moment, in this

[1:06:50] time.

[1:06:51] And this is a something that Ty talks

[1:06:53] about that each of us have uh an artist,

[1:06:57] a warrior

[1:06:58] and a uh a meditator in in all of us.

[1:07:03] And you know, one of the things that

[1:07:04] Ellie, when you were talking about as a

[1:07:08] as a professor thinking about how do I

[1:07:10] design this course? How do I design a

[1:07:12] classroom? How to design each moment in

[1:07:14] the classroom in such a way where there

[1:07:17] is safety, there's learning, there's

[1:07:20] challenge. All of those things can exist

[1:07:22] in perfect harmony and people feel fully

[1:07:24] seen and fully heard. Um it makes me

[1:07:27] think of you know, often times in the

[1:07:29] sutras when they talk about the Dharma,

[1:07:31] right? The Dharma is good in the

[1:07:33] beginning, it's good in the middle, and

[1:07:35] it's good in the end, right? And we

[1:07:38] think about ourselves and the work that

[1:07:39] we do. How do we make it good in the

[1:07:40] beginning, good in the middle, and good

[1:07:43] in the end, right?

[1:07:44] Um I actually want to check in with our

[1:07:46] sister to see where we are on time.

[1:07:50] Three two minutes.

[1:07:52] 20 minutes, okay. I I actually Great.

[1:07:55] I'm excited for this 20 minutes because

[1:07:57] I didn't tell our panelists that I was

[1:07:59] thinking about this. But I wonder in

[1:08:01] fact cuz you now have an opportunity to

[1:08:03] tap into the future cuz this is the

[1:08:06] future of the institution, the

[1:08:08] institution of higher learning, of of

[1:08:10] knowledge production, of research. I

[1:08:12] wonder if any of you all have a question

[1:08:15] for the young scientists.

[1:08:17] If you have anything that you're

[1:08:18] thinking about or something that you're

[1:08:20] wrestling with that you might want a

[1:08:22] young person's take.

[1:08:26] Yes, please.

[1:08:36] Hello, dear Sangha. Thank you so much

[1:08:38] for this wonderful panel.

[1:08:40] Um

[1:08:42] so I I work at the intersection of uh

[1:08:47] music, art, AI, and cognitive

[1:08:49] philosophy.

[1:08:50] So I've been on a on a fun ride this

[1:08:52] whole

[1:08:54] this whole retreat.

[1:08:56] Um but one thing I'm trying to do in my

[1:08:59] work is uh

[1:09:02] develop a moral imagination for AI

[1:09:04] development.

[1:09:06] I love this term moral imagination. I'm

[1:09:08] going to steal it if that's okay.

[1:09:09] All yours.

[1:09:10] Thank you. All yours. Um but this is

[1:09:12] something that I

[1:09:14] would really love

[1:09:16] to know from a younger generation

[1:09:20] uh who is

[1:09:23] of researchers of particularly who are

[1:09:24] growing up in this

[1:09:27] moment where it feels like knowledge

[1:09:29] systems are being disrupted at a very

[1:09:31] deep deep level, the way knowledge is

[1:09:34] constructed

[1:09:35] um by technological inventions.

[1:09:39] And I really want to know what your

[1:09:42] experience is

[1:09:45] of research,

[1:09:47] what research is turning into, and what

[1:09:50] matters still to you

[1:09:53] in research that

[1:09:55] can be supported or is being disturbed

[1:09:59] by uh by AI and and other technological

[1:10:03] developments.

[1:10:07] Thank you, brother.

[1:10:15] Well, I'll hand it over in a second cuz

[1:10:17] now I'm like a geriatric young person up

[1:10:19] here.

[1:10:22] And um I think for me something that's

[1:10:25] always made me really curious that I've

[1:10:27] seen shifting as I was doing my PhD and

[1:10:30] doing my research right now is

[1:10:32] um how qualitative research and

[1:10:36] considering what is data, I hope and I

[1:10:39] think is already changing in the fields

[1:10:41] of science, how we value both

[1:10:44] quantitative and qualitative data. And I

[1:10:46] think as we think about technology and

[1:10:49] how it maybe is a useful tool um that

[1:10:52] I'm really curious how we continue to

[1:10:55] have that

[1:10:57] embodied element and what we consider

[1:11:00] like knowledge production to be. Um I

[1:11:02] have a a certificate from the Critical

[1:11:05] Qualitative Healthcare Center. Shout out

[1:11:07] to CQ at Dalla Lana School of Public

[1:11:09] Health. Uh whose whose motto is doing

[1:11:11] science differently.

[1:11:13] And this always really inspired me

[1:11:14] because I was at the the Faculty of

[1:11:16] Medicine during my my PhD and at the

[1:11:19] Institute of Medical Science. And the

[1:11:21] first day they were like, "Who's

[1:11:22] studying stem cells?" And I was like,

[1:11:24] "Yeah." And then you're like, "These

[1:11:25] different things." And they're like,

[1:11:26] "Did we miss anyone?" And I was like,

[1:11:27] "Qualitative research on mindfulness for

[1:11:29] physician wellness." They're like, "We

[1:11:32] let you do what?"

[1:11:36] And I think um I think it's so important

[1:11:38] as I continue to do research to see

[1:11:41] as what has already I think started to

[1:11:44] trip us up in terms of like, you know,

[1:11:47] we have like a a quantitative survey to

[1:11:49] assess if this mindfulness intervention

[1:11:52] uh had a significant impact. And they're

[1:11:54] like, "It had no significant impact.

[1:11:55] That's all we can report." These kind of

[1:11:57] these boundaries that we've set around

[1:11:59] what science is, what data is, and what

[1:12:02] that can tell us.

[1:12:03] And yet in the studies I've done, say a

[1:12:06] mixed methods, where you have both

[1:12:08] quantitative and qualitative on like a

[1:12:10] quantitative measure. And a hello to

[1:12:11] Sarah. And can I just say, there's 17 of

[1:12:14] us at this retreat from the University

[1:12:16] of Toronto, my students and colleagues.

[1:12:18] Do you want to just raise your hands?

[1:12:19] Cuz I just like my song is here and it's

[1:12:21] so fun to have you. Um

[1:12:23] so another researcher that looks at this

[1:12:25] with me. Um

[1:12:28] that we can kind of see like a a survey

[1:12:30] that says there's no significant impact

[1:12:32] or movement in terms of a practice.

[1:12:36] Um and there's an example I think that

[1:12:37] Sarah shared once that So that was what

[1:12:39] the survey said. That's what the data

[1:12:40] said.

[1:12:42] And that same person in a qualitative

[1:12:44] interview is a mother whose child was

[1:12:47] really unwell

[1:12:48] and had gone through a mindfulness

[1:12:50] course. And when you talk to this woman,

[1:12:54] she talked about the way it had changed

[1:12:57] her relationship to her child's pain to

[1:12:59] have gone through that. And that she was

[1:13:01] able to hold that pain differently.

[1:13:03] So again, the quantitative scale said no

[1:13:07] significant impact.

[1:13:09] And a mother said it had like changed

[1:13:11] her relationship to her child forever.

[1:13:14] And so I I tell this all

[1:13:16] you know, and I'll tell one more story

[1:13:17] like that just to illustrate, which is

[1:13:18] again that we had someone whose, you

[1:13:20] know, biological markers were showing no

[1:13:22] significant impact of a

[1:13:23] mindfulness-based intervention. And this

[1:13:26] young person in a session we had been

[1:13:28] running on mindfulness shared that they

[1:13:30] had constantly been apologizing to their

[1:13:33] parents for having to take them to

[1:13:34] hospital visits. And through this

[1:13:36] practice had realized that they just had

[1:13:39] to thank them. They just had to show

[1:13:40] gratitude. And again, that this had

[1:13:42] changed their everyday life forever.

[1:13:45] No significant data that we could

[1:13:47] report. And so I pose this back to you

[1:13:49] as you say like, "What is research now?"

[1:13:51] I hope research now is expanding the

[1:13:54] boundaries in every field of what is

[1:13:57] science.

[1:13:58] And I hope that as we have tools that

[1:14:00] are like AI, that we can think of them

[1:14:03] like maybe incredible study buddies that

[1:14:06] can help us do some pieces of it. But

[1:14:09] that we are not handing over the

[1:14:12] interpretation or the lived experience.

[1:14:16] And to consider what that means, right?

[1:14:19] And to consider what the boundaries and

[1:14:21] limitations are of a technology we're

[1:14:24] inventing and what we still bring to it

[1:14:26] as humans as as or beyond humans. So

[1:14:29] I'll stop there, but just wanted to

[1:14:30] share those thoughts. And please add.

[1:14:38] I'll just add quickly um

[1:14:42] my research experience may look a little

[1:14:45] bit different than some others um just

[1:14:49] in how

[1:14:50] fieldwork

[1:14:52] um

[1:14:52] is very much lived experience. And

[1:14:57] AI

[1:14:59] mm

[1:15:02] For example, I I we're doing road

[1:15:05] mortality surveys

[1:15:07] of herpetofauna, which are reptiles and

[1:15:10] amphibians. And to ask like for species

[1:15:13] identification

[1:15:15] or like

[1:15:17] Sure, I can get characteristics of of a

[1:15:21] frog.

[1:15:23] But seeing it on the road

[1:15:25] in the road

[1:15:27] is a very different experience.

[1:15:29] And you pick up on different things. So

[1:15:31] for my research, it's it's definitely um

[1:15:37] yeah, how can AI support like there are

[1:15:40] models that and big ecological models

[1:15:44] where there's stochasticity and all this

[1:15:46] randomness and uncertainty. And I think

[1:15:49] acknowledging

[1:15:50] that uncertainty

[1:15:53] that AI doesn't yeah, know everything,

[1:15:56] that we're constantly evolving, the

[1:15:58] planet is

[1:16:00] from one day to the next, from one

[1:16:02] moment, one second, one less than a

[1:16:05] second. Um

[1:16:08] So

[1:16:09] yeah, just

[1:16:12] finding the middle way.

[1:16:21] Yeah, I I think your your question

[1:16:24] landed for me as something I resonated

[1:16:27] with really is that I'm not actually

[1:16:29] sure what the research world is going to

[1:16:31] look like in a world of AI. And that's

[1:16:34] part of the uncertainty that

[1:16:37] characterizes

[1:16:39] the atmosphere I feel like undergraduate

[1:16:41] students or young students are in right

[1:16:42] now. That's what it feels like is

[1:16:46] the future is now. And I feel like a lot

[1:16:48] of us are retreating to the now because

[1:16:50] we don't know what the future is

[1:16:52] essentially. And so we're turning to our

[1:16:54] like supervisors and adults in the room

[1:16:56] to tell us, um so what should we prepare

[1:16:59] ourselves for? And we get like some

[1:17:01] guidance and some advice. But a lot of

[1:17:03] it is we'll all find out collectively.

[1:17:06] And I think that's really scary.

[1:17:10] And it makes me think about what is it

[1:17:13] that humans are now doing

[1:17:16] uh

[1:17:17] when they are interfacing with AI. And

[1:17:20] like the trivially true thing is they're

[1:17:22] putting in the prompts. So maybe that's

[1:17:24] where we start of like

[1:17:26] we design systems and models to ask

[1:17:29] better questions to the AI. And that we

[1:17:32] have like an ethical framework to

[1:17:35] support which questions we choose to

[1:17:37] inquire into.

[1:17:38] And if if we have maybe a the

[1:17:43] either the first or the final say about

[1:17:45] what knowledge do we want to produce

[1:17:48] uh seems like a place to start. But

[1:17:51] let's all figure it out together because

[1:17:53] it's scary to be a young person at this

[1:17:55] time is what what I would say.

[1:17:58] Thank thank you so much again to the

[1:18:00] panel for your insights about the use of

[1:18:03] AI. Um

[1:18:04] uh I um

[1:18:07] from what I'm hearing, I just want to

[1:18:08] sort of sum up because there's a lot of

[1:18:09] richness here. And correct me if I'm

[1:18:11] wrong because I I um

[1:18:14] obviously I I do I study a lot of

[1:18:17] Buddhist stuff, things, right? And uh I

[1:18:21] think that maybe the Buddhist, you know,

[1:18:23] the Buddhist always have something to

[1:18:24] say. They always have a rebuttal.

[1:18:26] And um I think what I'm hearing from you

[1:18:30] is that the raft isn't the shore.

[1:18:32] That uh that AI is a tool to is is a

[1:18:35] means but not an ends to the way that we

[1:18:38] do our work. And the way and and the the

[1:18:41] raft in fact has to be skillfully used.

[1:18:44] And also we have to know when to put put

[1:18:46] it down. You can't take the raft to the

[1:18:48] other shore and then carry it on your

[1:18:49] back and keep walking through the

[1:18:51] mountains and call it a tool, right? And

[1:18:53] so I that's what I'm hearing from. This

[1:18:55] is the insight that I'm gaining from

[1:18:56] you. Like you are illuminating the

[1:18:58] Buddhist word to say, "The raft is not

[1:19:00] the shore, y'all." And it's scary, but

[1:19:02] we all know that it's a raft. And so how

[1:19:05] do when we have the mindfulness that it

[1:19:07] is a raft, how do we use it?

[1:19:10] How do we apply it? And we have to take

[1:19:11] very seriously Jorge's question in the

[1:19:13] morning.

[1:19:15] What kind what what sort of ways in

[1:19:17] which are we uh contributing to the

[1:19:20] power, the hegemonic power of thinking

[1:19:23] when we're using AI, right? And you

[1:19:25] know, that's a big question. So, that's

[1:19:26] not for y'all, but you know, that's

[1:19:28] something for us to sit on. Um I just

[1:19:30] want to say I Danielle, I know you have

[1:19:32] a question, but what we have a friend

[1:19:33] here who has a question and then we'll

[1:19:35] come right to you. Quickly. Got you.

[1:19:37] Okay. Please. First I want to

[1:19:40] my I'm a scientist, a professor, and my

[1:19:43] field is AI in precision oncology, so

[1:19:45] you know the background.

[1:19:47] Um thank you for this. I feel like I

[1:19:49] want to go back and get my students and

[1:19:52] talk with them. It's inspiring and it's

[1:19:54] also a lot of pearls of wisdoms that are

[1:19:57] coming. So, my question comes from

[1:20:00] listening how the field on

[1:20:03] um consciousness is evolving and how

[1:20:06] we're perceiving or learning

[1:20:09] things are different than maybe um a few

[1:20:14] decades back. And for those that have

[1:20:15] been teaching besides science, I also am

[1:20:18] a teacher.

[1:20:19] Um

[1:20:22] In the context of what we understand

[1:20:25] now, and this question is both for Elias

[1:20:27] the teacher and for the students that

[1:20:30] are perceiving this teaching,

[1:20:32] how do you think we should practically

[1:20:35] modify the techniques that we're using?

[1:20:38] So, we we tend to do things in a way

[1:20:41] that is assuming a certain

[1:20:44] uh sort of

[1:20:46] you know, process for the learning.

[1:20:49] And clearly we have evolved, and I don't

[1:20:52] feel that in the at least I'm in a

[1:20:54] university in in United States, you

[1:20:57] know, so

[1:20:58] I and I see a lot of other universities.

[1:21:01] As I see that in Europe is I don't think

[1:21:04] we have evolved the way that we everyday

[1:21:07] teach.

[1:21:08] So, for instance, these concepts that

[1:21:10] Sister Lang Yam and

[1:21:13] Brother Phap Linh are talking about, you

[1:21:15] know, those seeds that we plant and then

[1:21:17] how we wait and how we water.

[1:21:20] I don't feel honestly that I'm using

[1:21:23] that concept as I'm teaching. I just

[1:21:25] deliver concepts and and you know,

[1:21:28] content, and then I ask them back for

[1:21:31] So, I really would like to hear from you

[1:21:35] on both sides and how any of this is

[1:21:39] actually permeating into your actual And

[1:21:42] I'm getting the cookies for the exam.

[1:21:44] I'm doing that, for sure. That's already

[1:21:46] inspiring. But other things that are

[1:21:48] more like in terms of the learning

[1:21:51] process.

[1:21:52] Thank you so much.

[1:22:10] First of all, I think having like

[1:22:11] wonderful teachers always helps cuz

[1:22:14] the the beauty of the planting seeds

[1:22:16] metaphor is that sometimes the person

[1:22:19] that's speaking doesn't even know that

[1:22:20] they're doing that. They're just saying

[1:22:23] things and then that ends up planting a

[1:22:24] seed.

[1:22:26] Uh and so, part of it is just it's

[1:22:29] mystery. It's you show up as your whole

[1:22:31] self, that person shows up as their

[1:22:32] whole self, and then the magic unfolds.

[1:22:34] Uh but like one practice that's helped

[1:22:37] for me is I have three notes on my

[1:22:40] phone.

[1:22:41] One is the questions that carries on

[1:22:43] from high school. So, whenever I hear

[1:22:44] like a really cool question, I write it

[1:22:46] down.

[1:22:46] Uh another is quotes that I like, so

[1:22:49] from readings, from things that people

[1:22:50] say in conversations. If I get a chance,

[1:22:52] I'll write it down. It's a long list of

[1:22:53] quotes.

[1:22:54] Uh and the third one is just like an

[1:22:56] idea log. Um so, it's just random

[1:22:59] thoughts that come to me.

[1:23:02] Sometimes stupid, silly, profound, the

[1:23:04] whole the whole gamut. Uh and so, that's

[1:23:07] almost like me externalizing

[1:23:09] certain things that get planted or I'm

[1:23:11] noticing them getting planted. If I'm

[1:23:13] aware and it's it's all unfolding in a

[1:23:15] in a conscious manner, then I try to

[1:23:17] write it down. And I I just have this

[1:23:19] log now for

[1:23:21] 6 7 years of like thoughts that I've had

[1:23:23] previously. And it's really wonderful to

[1:23:25] see it

[1:23:26] Maybe I've just

[1:23:27] uh reverse engineered journaling, which

[1:23:29] a lot of people do. But it's the the

[1:23:32] part of this practice is that it's um

[1:23:34] organized into these three buckets and

[1:23:35] it's also like

[1:23:37] uh very easy for me to just

[1:23:39] pocket journal, note take, add little

[1:23:42] points. But the

[1:23:45] the beau

[1:23:46] We're doing it? Yeah. Can I Can I Can I

[1:23:49] just help I want to I You're saying

[1:23:51] really great things. I want to unpack it

[1:23:53] because I think this is really helpful,

[1:23:54] right, for the senior scientists in the

[1:23:56] room.

[1:23:57] What What Okay, I know you said it it's

[1:24:00] sort of magic, right? Yes, I accept

[1:24:03] that. I accept that premise and I

[1:24:05] believe that we can get more out of this

[1:24:07] because I think that when

[1:24:10] a senior professor asks a question as

[1:24:11] such, she's very hungry for to

[1:24:13] understand what What are you

[1:24:15] experiencing in the classroom? So, for

[1:24:17] you, and this is for you, too, Lauren,

[1:24:19] so get ready. What are What What makes a

[1:24:23] good professor for you? What makes What

[1:24:25] makes a professor make you feel safe

[1:24:28] enough to push your boundaries, to ask

[1:24:30] the questions, to be fully you in the in

[1:24:33] in the classroom? What What are the What

[1:24:35] are those characteristics? What does she

[1:24:37] do? What does he do? What do they do,

[1:24:39] right, that makes you feel that you can

[1:24:41] be your whole self in the classroom?

[1:24:52] You

[1:24:53] Lauren can go first if you want to think

[1:24:54] about it. Sure. Yeah.

[1:25:00] Um

[1:25:02] I think two people come to mind.

[1:25:06] Uh Ellie and then my herpetology

[1:25:09] professor.

[1:25:11] Um and for me

[1:25:14] what comes to mind is a professor who

[1:25:18] shares both their joy and suffering.

[1:25:23] And is really truly themselves. Just

[1:25:27] shows up and is not

[1:25:31] And even if I was going to say is not

[1:25:33] afraid, but

[1:25:34] we can be afraid. And it's about sharing

[1:25:37] that fear.

[1:25:38] Um

[1:25:40] and giving students the permission to

[1:25:43] also share their joy and their

[1:25:45] suffering.

[1:25:46] And um

[1:25:49] be afraid to make mistakes and not be

[1:25:52] afraid.

[1:25:53] Um and just having that energy be trans

[1:25:58] missed to me from Ellie, from

[1:26:01] Luke.

[1:26:02] Um

[1:26:04] It's It's getting that lighting that

[1:26:06] fire.

[1:26:09] That's That's what came up for me.

[1:26:13] Um

[1:26:14] Adding on to what Lauren said, I really

[1:26:17] love being in classrooms where the

[1:26:19] professor clearly loves what they study

[1:26:22] and that

[1:26:28] that joy and passion rubs off

[1:26:30] cuz very often they cannot contain it.

[1:26:33] And looking at Mark and Ellie.

[1:26:36] Um so, that's one quality. And the other

[1:26:38] thing that I really appreciate is when

[1:26:40] the professor

[1:26:42] is still in touch with what it feels

[1:26:44] like to be a beginner.

[1:26:46] So, I think a lot of really smart people

[1:26:49] are far removed from what it feels like

[1:26:51] to not possess that knowledge, right?

[1:26:52] So, this is the curse of knowledge in

[1:26:53] psychology. I think a lot of professors

[1:26:56] fall into this trap. Uh and so,

[1:26:58] remembering the time when you didn't

[1:27:01] know the things that you knew

[1:27:03] and what it felt like to have a few bits

[1:27:05] and pieces of information present, but

[1:27:08] not this robust careers worth of

[1:27:11] uh knowledge that's built up in your

[1:27:13] store. And so,

[1:27:15] being acutely aware to that and willing

[1:27:18] to share how to build that with students

[1:27:21] along the way goes goes really a long

[1:27:23] way, I think.

[1:27:28] I uh

[1:27:29] I'm so curious for your question, so I I

[1:27:30] made some notes so I would be succinct.

[1:27:33] Um just a resounding yes. And I think

[1:27:36] also, you know, Ty uh once shared Ty

[1:27:39] never gave her a treat

[1:27:41] if it wasn't also for Ty.

[1:27:44] And so, also as a professor, like

[1:27:47] yeah, there's like ethics and

[1:27:49] boundaries, like how much I share. Like

[1:27:50] I don't walk into my classroom and like

[1:27:52] lie on the floor and talk about like,

[1:27:53] you know, the hardest thing.

[1:27:56] Uh so, I'm mindful of that. And I also

[1:27:58] walk in and like if I have a big

[1:28:00] presentation coming up, I tell my class

[1:28:02] I'm preparing for it and what I'm

[1:28:03] nervous about. And then I come back and

[1:28:04] tell them how it went. You know, and so

[1:28:08] looking at where is the line that I have

[1:28:10] drawn boundaries? And from Maslach, the

[1:28:12] like the burnout inventory, one of them

[1:28:14] is when we don't feel like our values

[1:28:17] align with our work. Like burnout

[1:28:19] happens when we don't feel like we can

[1:28:20] be humans at our job, particularly for

[1:28:22] clinicians, but this goes across. And

[1:28:24] so, have I drawn the boundary of who I

[1:28:27] am as a professor? Have I drawn that too

[1:28:29] tightly so that I'm not myself? That

[1:28:31] causes me harm and it doesn't invite the

[1:28:34] humans around me to be humans with me.

[1:28:36] So, the the little illustration there is

[1:28:37] I I was running an intervention at the

[1:28:39] hospital for six children where some of

[1:28:41] us are here and work from and for

[1:28:43] adolescents with chronic pain. And the

[1:28:44] physician I was working with there was

[1:28:46] sitting next to me and my boundary of

[1:28:48] how much I shared was at a different

[1:28:50] point. And that physician's feedback was

[1:28:52] over the course of running this workshop

[1:28:54] with me, realized

[1:28:55] because again, as a physician, there's

[1:28:56] like how much am I sharing myself with

[1:28:58] my patient? There's, you know, set of

[1:29:00] ethics and morals for the spaces we're

[1:29:02] in, absolutely. And they'd drawn the

[1:29:04] boundary too tight. They released it

[1:29:06] enough. And they shared that over this

[1:29:08] time of teaching with me and seeing the

[1:29:10] parts of myself I was okay to share with

[1:29:12] their patients, they start sharing a

[1:29:14] little bit more.

[1:29:16] Their patient would say, "How are you

[1:29:17] today?" And they would say,

[1:29:19] "I'm having a hard day. It's really

[1:29:21] busy."

[1:29:22] And that changed how that patient was

[1:29:23] listening to their feedback for their

[1:29:25] care. So, just this question, right?

[1:29:27] Like, how do we bring our whole selves?

[1:29:28] And it actually can replenish us and the

[1:29:30] people around us. Um I also want to just

[1:29:33] like some practical things. I've been

[1:29:34] asked uh by the organizing team, who's

[1:29:36] whispering in your ear, to do one of the

[1:29:38] workshops and to like nerd out on

[1:29:40] pedagogy and how I bring this into

[1:29:42] classrooms. So, if you want to talk

[1:29:43] more, we're going to do some of that.

[1:29:45] Maybe I'll rope in some students and

[1:29:46] colleagues. So, we can talk a lot more.

[1:29:48] So, the just two other little seeds I'll

[1:29:49] plant now is if you're not familiar with

[1:29:51] this term, the hidden curriculum,

[1:29:53] it's this idea that as as teachers or

[1:29:57] really any space we have influence, but

[1:29:58] particularly as teachers, the curriculum

[1:30:01] is like the little bit of the iceberg we

[1:30:02] can see, that maybe the technical skills

[1:30:04] that we're teaching. The hidden

[1:30:06] curriculum is every quality of who we

[1:30:08] are in the room.

[1:30:09] And that that is actually where so much

[1:30:11] learning is being picked up. It's beyond

[1:30:13] words. It's our being. And that really

[1:30:16] matters. And we don't see it. Making the

[1:30:19] invisible visible. So, I invite each of

[1:30:20] us in our spheres of influence where we

[1:30:22] teach to look out for the hidden

[1:30:24] curriculum. How you call on a student?

[1:30:26] Or if a student asks you a question, are

[1:30:28] there some students that you said,

[1:30:29] "That's a great question." and three you

[1:30:31] didn't? And how did that make them feel?

[1:30:33] Right? So, just every one of these

[1:30:36] hidden pieces. Um and finally, like the

[1:30:38] deep listening that we're learning here,

[1:30:41] that is learning. Right? Like, in a

[1:30:43] classroom, you have the opportunity to

[1:30:46] teach your technical skills,

[1:30:48] and you have this incredible opportunity

[1:30:50] to teach loving speech and deep

[1:30:52] listening.

[1:30:53] And the pedagogical rationale for that

[1:30:55] is that you're helping students to have

[1:30:57] a more efficient way of learning

[1:31:00] knowledge. So, play with it.

[1:31:05] Thank you so much again for profound

[1:31:07] insights. Um

[1:31:09] we have time for one more question, but

[1:31:11] before we go to Danielle's question, I'm

[1:31:12] going to cite Danielle real quick from

[1:31:14] her morning session where she talked

[1:31:16] about it's really what I'm hearing is

[1:31:17] really it's all about creating that

[1:31:19] space.

[1:31:20] Right? Creating that space for people to

[1:31:22] show up and show out fully.

[1:31:24] And one of the one of the hard parts of

[1:31:26] that thing is that you have to have that

[1:31:28] space for yourself. And you have to be

[1:31:30] confident enough to hold that space for

[1:31:32] yourself to be fully who you are before

[1:31:34] you can create that space for other

[1:31:36] folks to show up to be fully who they

[1:31:39] are. Or else it's a farce.

[1:31:41] And people can pick up when you're fake,

[1:31:43] right? And so, to to to be able to do

[1:31:45] that, it requires us to have a

[1:31:48] a relationship with oneself.

[1:31:51] And you know, because I'm very

[1:31:53] fascinated with intellectual history,

[1:31:56] for those in the room who are thinking

[1:31:57] about why do we have why are classrooms

[1:32:00] designed the way they are, a highly

[1:32:02] recommended book is The Pedagogy of the

[1:32:04] Oppressed.

[1:32:06] And uh that book sort of gives us the

[1:32:08] history of why our classrooms feel so

[1:32:10] transactional.

[1:32:12] Why we feel like a such a disconnect to

[1:32:15] the students we we are hoping to build

[1:32:17] community with. Right? And it's a great

[1:32:20] tool a foundation to build your moral

[1:32:22] imagination. And with that, I'll pass it

[1:32:24] to the last question to Danielle uh for

[1:32:27] our panelist. Thank you.

[1:32:31] Nah, I'm so appreciating your weaving as

[1:32:34] we journey through the conversation.

[1:32:37] And

[1:32:38] Ellie, you spoke something at the very

[1:32:39] beginning that really touched me. You

[1:32:41] spoke of your heartbreak when Ty wasn't

[1:32:45] properly cited either in the paper by

[1:32:47] the doctor or by the person who

[1:32:50] represented that work in the practice.

[1:32:53] And in giving that example, you give

[1:32:55] life to something that's very present

[1:32:58] right now. And part of me is like, do I

[1:33:00] want to talk through my shared

[1:33:02] qualitative nerdery into this point? Do

[1:33:04] I want to speak So, I'm not sure which

[1:33:07] gate I'll enter it through.

[1:33:11] But the I

[1:33:12] the reality

[1:33:14] that there is extraction, that there is

[1:33:18] the issue of knowledges and power. You

[1:33:21] spoke of hegemonic power.

[1:33:24] What it means to decolonize research,

[1:33:27] what it means to honor ancestral science

[1:33:30] not as a thing of the past, very much as

[1:33:32] a thing of the present and of course of

[1:33:34] the future. The way in which that is

[1:33:36] held with integrity. This is kind of a

[1:33:39] banger of a question that's for you and

[1:33:41] for the room and for the week, which is

[1:33:45] how one of the most inspiring

[1:33:47] researchers I've worked with in the last

[1:33:49] few years, her name is Pratimima

[1:33:51] Muniyappa, and she works at MIT in the

[1:33:53] Media Lab.

[1:33:54] And she as an indigenous woman of India

[1:33:58] works with tribes there, but her work is

[1:34:00] about decolonizing space because she's

[1:34:03] like, we might have a shot there of not

[1:34:07] doing the thing we're doing here. And

[1:34:10] it's an interesting question for the

[1:34:11] time because of so many material forces

[1:34:14] we're all aware of.

[1:34:16] But this question of what does it mean

[1:34:18] to work in the system of academe, of

[1:34:22] research, of all the fields present in

[1:34:24] this room?

[1:34:26] And to

[1:34:28] dissolve them lovingly within like the

[1:34:31] imaginal goo of a butterfly

[1:34:35] cocoon so that it may shift. But in a

[1:34:39] compassionate way and a conscious way

[1:34:41] and a way that is

[1:34:42] held in the togetherness. And

[1:34:45] there was some Dharma family earlier

[1:34:47] that spoke into this very beautifully

[1:34:50] after the first session. The question is

[1:34:52] really how to hold more space for that

[1:34:57] and bringing that into every room, every

[1:35:00] conversation. But I feel like the point

[1:35:03] I can put on it is just what does it

[1:35:04] mean to

[1:35:06] decenter the things that are the gravity

[1:35:09] of the system?

[1:35:12] And how are you Again, big question. How

[1:35:15] are you working with that? Like our

[1:35:17] brother here who said, "Like, I'm loving

[1:35:20] the old ones now. Like, how y'all doing

[1:35:22] it?" I feel like I'm in the listening

[1:35:24] here of like, what is emerging with you

[1:35:27] and your friends?

[1:35:29] Because I feel like your your wisdom of

[1:35:32] there are these practices too, of

[1:35:33] course, of sourcing from the future

[1:35:36] versus the ancestral is not just the

[1:35:38] past. What does it mean to source from

[1:35:40] the future to inform the present? We

[1:35:43] need that wisdom and that vision. So,

[1:35:45] that's my

[1:35:46] um very, very long again, I apologize

[1:35:48] for the second time today,

[1:35:50] question of like, how to be with these

[1:35:53] complex things that want to change and

[1:35:57] uh need to be hospiced in the way that

[1:35:59] they do that.

[1:36:02] Thank you for this uh juicy question.

[1:36:04] And um I'm going to jump in with some

[1:36:07] notes and then pass the mic cuz I think

[1:36:09] it's also fun to feel this river that's

[1:36:11] flowing. Uh and I'm so grateful actually

[1:36:14] to feel that river behind me. I can look

[1:36:16] over and see Ty in our our ancestral

[1:36:18] altar. So, I think it's beautiful to

[1:36:20] just like be in this stream of wisdom. I

[1:36:22] feel their hands on my back. I'm going

[1:36:24] to put some and then put my hands on

[1:36:26] these backs and see where we're flowing

[1:36:28] forward together.

[1:36:29] Um first, just like a resounding yes in

[1:36:32] that, you know, we can

[1:36:34] uh give our lived experience and know

[1:36:36] that this is, as you said beautifully,

[1:36:37] like a question for all of us. And as a

[1:36:39] research field, like, what knowledge are

[1:36:41] we centering and not centering? What is

[1:36:43] still margin to the center? Like, you

[1:36:46] know, I wanted to publish my findings in

[1:36:48] like a biomedical journal, which like,

[1:36:50] yay, I did. And and I could feel how

[1:36:53] margin to the center, you know, research

[1:36:56] on on mindfulness, on compassion, and

[1:36:58] qualitative research. I I wrote to the

[1:37:00] editors of this journal, CMAJ Open. You

[1:37:02] can go find my findings if you want. I

[1:37:05] was like, "Do you publish qualitative

[1:37:06] research? It says that you do, but I

[1:37:08] can't find any." And they're like, "We

[1:37:10] do, but it rarely meets our standards."

[1:37:12] You know, so I could feel that. And I'm

[1:37:13] proud to have the acceptance letter

[1:37:15] back.

[1:37:16] And so, this question though that you're

[1:37:18] asking, which is

[1:37:20] what do we view again, like I said

[1:37:21] earlier, what is research and data?

[1:37:23] What's been marginalized? And then also

[1:37:25] um one of the indigenous librarians I

[1:37:27] work with at the University of Toronto

[1:37:29] has questions about our peer review

[1:37:30] process. Who has access to that? So,

[1:37:32] even in our body of knowledge that we

[1:37:35] begin citing, you know, who can even be

[1:37:38] included in that? So, I think as a as a

[1:37:40] body of researchers, this is a really

[1:37:42] important question.

[1:37:43] Um and for me, I just wanted to share a

[1:37:45] little bit about some of the ways I've

[1:37:47] played with this in my work. Uh when I

[1:37:50] went to do my PhD, I wanted to bring in

[1:37:53] Ty's teachings. Uh and I had many

[1:37:55] reasons for this on a rationale of like,

[1:37:57] he's looking at pragmatic applied. So,

[1:38:00] this applies to physicians are very

[1:38:02] practical.

[1:38:03] And I was curious. I had a you know, how

[1:38:05] do I the the terminology we sometimes

[1:38:08] use in like decolonizing pedagogy would

[1:38:10] be, how am I maybe appreciating the

[1:38:13] knowledge I'm using rather than

[1:38:14] appropriating? And that's, you know, a

[1:38:16] really deep question. For me, part of

[1:38:19] that uh

[1:38:20] comes from indigenous research

[1:38:21] methodologies that have been cultivated

[1:38:23] particularly on the lands of Canada. Um

[1:38:26] which is a proposal to have an ongoing

[1:38:30] iterative reciprocal process throughout

[1:38:32] the entire phase of a research study

[1:38:34] with the communities upon which you are

[1:38:38] drawing and building knowledge. And what

[1:38:40] this actually looked like practically,

[1:38:42] remember, we're engaged in applied

[1:38:43] Buddhism here. We like to get real

[1:38:44] practical. I had a program advisory

[1:38:47] committee, a PAC, at the academy. And we

[1:38:50] made what we lovingly called the MAC,

[1:38:51] which was my monastic advisory

[1:38:53] committee. And so, we officially made

[1:38:55] part of the work to have monastics in

[1:38:56] this tradition, Brother Phap Linh,

[1:38:58] Brother Phap Dung, Sister Hien, and

[1:39:00] Brother Phap, who actually came along

[1:39:02] the ride for all phases and gave input.

[1:39:05] And actually, the day I was publishing,

[1:39:07] I was WhatsApping with my committee

[1:39:09] group about a citation. And the

[1:39:10] monastics, Phap Linh gave a big call out

[1:39:13] to me

[1:39:13] make sure I was using the term applied

[1:39:15] Buddhism because Thay had iterated. And

[1:39:17] so, coming back to a word you said this

[1:39:19] morning that I'll just drop in before I

[1:39:21] say too much else cuz there's so much to

[1:39:23] say, which is this deep question I think

[1:39:26] we can ask ourselves as researchers, as

[1:39:29] practitioners, and humans, how am I

[1:39:32] doing this in a non-performative way?

[1:39:35] I love that word. And to really ask

[1:39:37] myself, like with my practice,

[1:39:40] you know, am I saying the morning gatha

[1:39:42] so I can tell someone later that I said

[1:39:44] it?

[1:39:45] Or am I just Do I practice that every

[1:39:48] day? And if I'm the only one who knows

[1:39:50] that, that's enough. Like to me like

[1:39:52] what is the non-performative nature of

[1:39:54] doing research? And I think so much of

[1:39:56] research is pushing us to be

[1:39:57] performative, right? Cuz to get the

[1:39:59] grant, you say all the ways you're

[1:40:00] amazing.

[1:40:02] Um and so, I just I love this question.

[1:40:04] Like what is What can research really

[1:40:06] look like when we bring our whole

[1:40:08] hearts, this love we're talking about?

[1:40:10] Um

[1:40:11] and to be non-performative in the ways

[1:40:13] that we are decolonizing. I don't know

[1:40:15] that I know the answer, but what is

[1:40:18] non-extraction

[1:40:19] um

[1:40:20] and I'll just say that for me, when I

[1:40:23] received the lamp here, I Some of you

[1:40:25] will keep hearing me say this. You

[1:40:26] receive a poem back from your ancestors.

[1:40:29] Um and the last line of my poem is a

[1:40:32] boundless stream of love enters into the

[1:40:35] sea of suffering.

[1:40:36] Um and I've just been walking with that,

[1:40:39] like imagining myself being the stream

[1:40:41] when I go into like a committee meeting

[1:40:43] or like a classroom. Like what is my

[1:40:46] deepest aspiration? How is that flowing

[1:40:48] into the space? And so, yeah, I'll I'll

[1:40:51] end there, but just to say like yeah,

[1:40:53] what are we marginalizing? What hasn't

[1:40:55] been included in the research? How do we

[1:40:57] maybe take up space to make space?

[1:41:00] Um and maybe I see now with the mic I

[1:41:03] was going to hand it to both of you just

[1:41:04] to plant a seed that I'm

[1:41:06] I'm curious from both of you, yeah, what

[1:41:09] What do you want to see? I um I have

[1:41:12] gotten a

[1:41:13] signal from the powers that be that it

[1:41:17] is it is time and I'm not going to

[1:41:19] say what the signal is, but this is the

[1:41:21] powers. And if you want to continue the

[1:41:23] conversation, we have so many

[1:41:25] opportunities to continue the

[1:41:26] conversation.

[1:41:28] Um first um I want to thank the

[1:41:30] panelists. You know, I this I know this

[1:41:33] was a lot a lot to ask a lot from the

[1:41:35] young scientists to come up and I know

[1:41:37] there was a lot of nerves. And I want to

[1:41:39] say acknowledge how phenomenal you you

[1:41:42] both you both were Y'all three of you

[1:41:44] were

[1:41:45] um and how amazing and thank you so much

[1:41:47] for sharing your insight and your vision

[1:41:50] and all the your aspirations for what is

[1:41:53] to come and what is happening now. And

[1:41:56] um

[1:41:57] I'll wrap up really quick the session

[1:41:58] with a really quick stories as I'm

[1:42:00] thinking about the questions that are

[1:42:01] being asked and the answers that are

[1:42:03] being given um is that uh

[1:42:07] there was a little pamphlet, a little

[1:42:08] letter that Thay had written to the

[1:42:10] children of or the children of boat

[1:42:13] people and boat people.

[1:42:16] And he he writes this whole long letter

[1:42:18] after, you know, we've you know, many

[1:42:20] families have escaped Vietnam by boat.

[1:42:23] And he There's a line in there that's so

[1:42:26] comforting and so like when I read it, I

[1:42:27] was like, oh, okay.

[1:42:29] In the end, he says, "Listen, you are

[1:42:32] where you are because you're you you

[1:42:34] have been sent as a gift from your

[1:42:36] ancestors to wherever you land.

[1:42:40] And you bring your insight to that

[1:42:42] place. And you transform it in the ways

[1:42:45] you can transform it, right? And this

[1:42:48] goes back to Brother Fap Linh's talk on

[1:42:50] the seeds Sister Langiem and Brother Fap

[1:42:51] Linh's talk on the seeds about planting

[1:42:54] these seeds, right? Cuz sometimes when

[1:42:56] we're thinking, how do we decolonialize

[1:42:58] these institutions? That's a huge

[1:42:59] endeavor. That's a big question.

[1:43:03] And

[1:43:04] as we go back to the Yogacara piece of

[1:43:07] Buddhist philosophy, every time we

[1:43:09] disrupt something that is habitual,

[1:43:12] whether it is an institutional process,

[1:43:14] whether it is an assumption of how

[1:43:16] things are, in the Yogacara Yogacara

[1:43:18] philosophy, they call that a revolution.

[1:43:22] Right? So, the Buddhists again, they

[1:43:23] have a response to this.

[1:43:25] The revolution begins in us, and the

[1:43:28] revolution will not be televised, but

[1:43:30] it's still going on.

[1:43:32] And so, to think of ourselves also as

[1:43:34] bastions of And I'll say this with my

[1:43:37] whole heart, power, of influence, of a

[1:43:40] source for inspiration and revolution,

[1:43:42] even when we think we're not

[1:43:43] revolutionizing anything. When you

[1:43:45] disrupt a moment of violence, when you

[1:43:48] disrupt a moment of

[1:43:50] anything that is not that it brings harm

[1:43:52] to another,

[1:43:53] believe me, that's a revolution for the

[1:43:56] individual and the collective

[1:43:57] consciousness. And so, thank you very

[1:43:59] much for for listening and planting

[1:44:01] these seeds with us. And may the

[1:44:03] revolution continue.

Thich Nhat Hanh
AuthorThich Nhat Hanh

Vietnamese Zen master, poet, and peace activist. Founded Plum Village in France and was central to the engaged Buddhism movement. His teachings on mindfulness, interbeing, and walk…

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Frequently Asked Questions

According to the panel, integration happens through what one speaker calls 'replicability reimagined'—understanding that qualitative research with humans must honor that humans are always changing. Mindfulness sharpens attention to what is actually present rather than what frameworks predict, allowing scientists to update models responsively and bring their whole selves to inquiry.
Rather than approaching research with predetermined answers, the art of not knowing involves genuine openness to surprise and the willingness to encounter data without preconception. This aligns with the Buddhist practice of beginner's mind and allows frameworks to evolve rather than ossify into dogma.
The panel emphasizes that institutions—even imperfect ones—create spaces where intellectual risk-taking, deep collaboration, and whole-person engagement can happen. In a moment of political threat to academic freedom, protecting these spaces becomes a moral necessity for safeguarding future research and wisdom-making.
The moderator argues that data becomes wisdom only through the stories we tell with it. The humanities and narrative are not opposed to science but are the medium through which data can address real human and planetary suffering and 'make a dent in the world.'
Moral imagination is the capacity to envision what is possible and what ought to be. It arises from listening to the present (current science), the future (what is emerging), and the past (ancestral wisdom). Without it, science becomes merely technical; without rigorous science, moral imagination becomes fantasy.
The panel invites scientists to 'show up as a whole person' rather than adopting a narrow academic persona. This means bringing spiritual practice, emotional wisdom, and moral commitments into work, creating accountability through relationships, and defending institutions that allow this kind of authentic presence.
Rather than choosing between them, the panelists model epistemological pluralism—understanding that different ways of knowing reveal different truths. Both quantitative rigor and qualitative depth can be held with integrity when the researcher remains attentive and open to what is actually emerging from the work.

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